- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmy.ml
You must log in or register to comment.
Biggest mistake is the optics. I mean, when has fighting back against your oppressor ever gotten reported on positively in the news?
This reminds me of a useful tip: If you ever feel the need to apologize to someone you know was in the wrong; they were abusing you. The language they used in this is a textbook example of how someone acts when they feel like they need to apologize to their abuser.
You see it in discussions about the situation as well. People want to negotiate the Palestinians/ Palestinian supporters down, even if they agree with them, because everyone knows Israel isn’t going to budge. A ceasefire is completely out of the question, obviously
The French and Italians weren’t willing to budge either. Resistance is not futile.
Removed by mod
I mean, we’ve now had extensive evidence showing that Israel fired on Israeli civilians (e.g. Nova) and extensive evidence that Israel has no issue bombing hospitals (e.g. al-Ahli).
Edit: we also have extensive evidence showing that Israel has no issue firing up on and injuring thousands of innocent protestors.
Removed by mod
Where’s the evidence that Hamas killed thousands of civilians? All we have evidence of is that thousands of Israelis died, but we also know that a good chunk of civilians were killed in friendly fire incidents. In fact, per Israel’s own admission, they had to revise down their casualty numbers because bodies they thought were Israeli civilians were actually Hamas. Civilian deaths are supposed to have commensurate military objectives. While that’s clearly not been true for Israel’s bombing of Gaza, it’s far less clear because of how little is known about what actually happened on October 7th.
Videos of Nova show armed personnel amongst civilians opening fire against Hamas. Reports from October 7th include that Israeli tanks fired at Israeli civilians, and that Israel created a blockade for cars escaping Nova. Video from helicopters in the area suggest that nondescript sedans were targeted fleeing the area. News reports at the time suggest that many Kibbutz were heavily armed because of fear of Hamas, and in fact a number of them (particularly those closest to the border) were made up of ex-IDF. These have all been reported on by Israeli and/or Western media.
How many of those “hundreds of murders” were caused by the IDF? How many from people caught in the crossfire? How many were “ex-IDF civilians with guns”? Hamas’ objective was pretty clear: take hostages, because that’s the only way they’ve seen that works to put pressure on the Israeli government. Do I have issues with taking civilian hostages? Of course! But that objective is diametrically opposed to going on a mass murder spree. Dead hostages aren’t hostages: they’re martyrs.
There’s no way of knowing what circumstances the hundreds of dead civilians died in because the Israeli government has been covering it up in order to spread propaganda like “40 beheaded babies” and whatnot. That, in itself, should raise red flags.
Am I denying that any civilians died purely at the hands of Hamas? Of course not. Shit happens during conflict, especially when the people you’re fighting just spent the past few decades shooting up children at your peaceful protests. You’re angry, adrenaline is pumping, and (by the numbers) you probably lost one of your parents to IDF action. What I am denying is that it was systematic behaviour and that Hamas was purely responsible for hundreds of murders.
Hamas, as an organization, does not have a problem with Israeli civilians. Hamas’ problem has always been with the Zionist state, the government, and the IDF in support of Zionism. If you’ve been listening to the interviews of hostages released early in the conflict, you’d see that they’re rather positive on the ordeal. Their professed goal was to claim hostages (which they did do, and which we’ve seen has successfully stirred up discontent with the Netanyahu government). You’re claiming that Hamas actually had a second goal, which was to go on a mass murder spree. This is not only diametrically opposed to their professed goal, but also serves to rile up Israeli support for the Netanyahu government. Unless you think Hamas is literally run by room-temperature IQ imbeciles, you should reconsider.
Removed by mod
In total, since 2004, rockets fired by Hamas have killed less than 50 people in Israel. For comparison, the Great March of Return (a peaceful protest by Palestinians in the Gaza Strip) led to the IDF killing more than 200 Palestinians.
Edit: read this
Just because Israel is overstepping hard
You mean genocide? I wonder how much Hasbara has destroyed your basic human compassion you disgusting liberal pig.
Removed by mod
And I take a stand against liberals like you who think history started on Oct. 7th, 2023.
If you abuse someone to the point of taking their humanity away and they fight back and kill you, the principle blame is not on the one who killed you.
Every Israeli must face the fact that their country is a racist apartheid regime that it is in a state of constant fascist war, every Zionist must reckon with the fact that they will sacrifice their bodies to uphold racism. No Israeli was ever safe in Israel but their voices cannot be valued over the Palestinians. What you are doing is perverting the discussion because you are uncomfortable with the idea of the oppressed fighting back.
Let me put this in a language you can understand in your fragile view of the world, if Jewish prisoners escaped from a concentration camp in Nazi Germany and killed every single guard and kidnapped members of their family as hostages, what would you say to them? Be more civil? See how easily your “concern” falls apart.
Removed by mod
What you’re suggesting is tribal guilt by association.
Yes I do think that partying next to an open air concentration camp is grounds for being caught in the crossfire of war and getting killed. Israel is a militant country where mandatory military service is required for all of its citizens, not caring for the well being of Palestinians is a fundamental part of Israeli society, so much so that it led to a company hosting a festival next to Gaza.
If I wanted to party I wouldn’t do it next to fucking Auschwitz.
The iof murdered hundreds of israelis on October 7th by dropping bombs and firing tanks on them. There is literally footage of this you can watch and see for yourself.
The accusation of mass rapes is another piece of shitty propaganda trotted out by israel to further try to discredit Palestinians and Hamas.
Why the fuck would people fighting for the freedom of their illegally imprisoned families, children and friends, detour to have a mass rape (and find 40 babies to behead at an outdoor rave), midway through their plan for aquiring folk for the hostage swap and taking them back to Gaza?
Do you also believe the terrorists called Monday and Tuesday hid their guns in working mri machines? Fucking zionist.
Removed by mod
Another relevant document is Hamas’ 2017 Charter (which supercedes the 1988 Charter):
Removed by mod
Removed by mod
The book is available here in English and Arabic:
Its frame of reference is Islam, which determines its principles, objectives and means.
This part isn’t going to sell many people on Hamas. There’s a lot of justification of violence in their text. (Although that could be said about a great number of religious texts).
However, their demands (page 15) don’t seem too difficult to meet…. As long as they know they aren’t getting any additional land—Israel will never go for that.
Then Israel must be destroyed completely. This is not a hyperbole, Israel does not deserve to exist. Israel is a paper tiger of US imperialism, it will die when the US is unable to prop up its corpse any longer.
This part isn’t going to sell many people on Hamas. There’s a lot of justification of violence in their text. (Although that could be said about a great number of religious texts).
Islamophobia rears its head once again. What’s the other side? A racist, ethno-supremacist apartheid state of barely indistinguishable neo-nazis that’s hellbent on being a US lapdog against the Arab world (and the Global South).
Justifying Israeli genocide? Most of those people were just born there. Doing their thing. What do you propose happens to them?
Willfully misinterpreting my words, Israel as a nation state is separate from Israelis.
Most of those people were just born there. Doing their thing. What do you propose happens to them?
Live in Palestine as equals or leave the country never to return. Many “Israelis” are settlers who saw the nation as a ripe spot to cozy up while displacing the indigenous Palestinians, they will be the first to flee back to their imperial core. The ones who were born into this mess will be citizens of Palestine rebuilding the country on top of the corpse of Zionists who tried to take it from them and their Palestinian brothers in arms.
There are Israelis resisting the occupation, unfortunately they are the exception not the rule as nearly all facets of Israeli life is consumed by hatred for Arabs since birth until death.
It’s hardly willful, you did say they should be destroyed completely. That’s pretty open for interpretation.
So, let’s say the current government of Israel steps down, and they hold a fair election between everyone to start a new democracy. Borders are gone, no more fighting. The new government rebuilds Gaza. All the citizens of Israel keep their lives under the new system. And religious discrimination and all acts of violence, no matter how you think god feels, becomes a crime — does that work? Did I miss anything?
Oh, and feel free to kill the former government. Don’t tell them until after haha.
current government of Israel
Israeli apartheid stretches far beyond “the current government”, what you advocate for is a total destruction of the Jewish state.
You also ignore Right of Return for Palestinians as well as other reparations in the West Bank.
You do not understand Israel and it shows.
I said borders are gone. Is that not the right to return? It was to me.
As far as reparations, the new government would handle that.
It all seems pretty cut and dry to me.
Removed by mod
It popped Israel’s iron wall illusion, and made all the collaborator Arab governments look stupid. Israel can’t defend itself how will it ever defend them against their own people?
The savagery and brutality by Israel is because they want to rebuild their iron wall image that was revealed to be an illusion. They want us to be afraid of it but all I can see is how much it needed western aid to survive. I and many like me are more convinced than ever that Israel can and will be defeated.
I might have been in the minority of Arabs who had the phantasy of coexistence with Zionist settlers. After they revealed that their hatred and racism is the default and not some fringe position, I realize that an open war is the only way and option. Either us or us, no place for them.
Removed by mod
Removed by mod
