Except for that last line, I can’t in good conscience ban Pizzaman. As long as he brings the arguments, it’s not something I’ll do. After all, dissent is allowed in the comments.
And Winter and I just had a discussion about gun laws that stemmed from Pizzaman’s post. So, there’s no reason why people can’t agree or disagree on the substance and entirely ignore a thin façade of civility if that’s what you really think it is.
As long as he brings the arguments, it’s not something I’ll do
The problem is that his arguments are made from faulty, intentionally dishonest foundations. It doesn’t matter how many random propaganda sites he links, the whole thing is still a heap of garbage and lies.
Do you think the solution to mis-/dis-information is censorship or otherwise attempting to marginalize what you believe are “garbage and lies”? What makes his arguments invalid? Which of his statements are false and lies? How do you know? And why are you definitely right and why is he definitely wrong?
There’s this really interesting humans do. We become convinced of some viewpoint, whether through reason or, more likely, uncritical acceptance of some framework. It’s the right viewpoint. We assume others must also share our viewpoint. The truth is obvious to us. So disagreement is often treated as lies. The one who disagrees knows the truth, but chooses to say otherwise. They’re nefarious, despicable, and disrespectful for their duplicity in the face of an obvious truth.
But here’s the thing: people genuinely hold beliefs different than you. What you see as “faulty, intentionally dishonest foundations” can only be true if you are of the mind of Pizzamane and can definitively say he believes in something else entirely. You must have the mind of Pizzamane. Unless you’re really a psychic, you cannot do that. He may actually believe the foundations of his beliefs and you’ve been wrong this whole time. You can’t know that’s true either.
So what to do?
As hard as it might be, you have no choice but to except Pizzamane and other liberals and leftists at face value. You can consider our beliefs as garbage all you want. But leftists have every right to participate in this community, just as you do. And, I assure you, we often consider your beliefs garbage. When we disagree, then we should argue about the arguments, the statements and conclusions.
In short, he, or anyone else for that matter, will not be banned by me as long as they bring arguments. (…and don’t tell people to fuck off…😠)
If all mankind minus one were of one opinion, and only one person wereof the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.—John Stuart Mill
Do you think the solution to mis-/dis-information is censorship or otherwise attempting to marginalize what you believe are “garbage and lies”?
Yes. When people continuously are shown to be bad actors uninterested in the actual facts, yes, it’s good for the health of a community built around discussion to remove such a person since all letting them stay does is place an extra burden on everyone else to continuously correct the lies such that they don’t propagate to unknowing people.
When people continuously are shown to be bad actors uninterested in the actual facts, yes, it’s good for the health of a community built around discussion to remove such a person
Funny how this standard applies to me, but not the conservatives around here who are throwing insults around (one of whom is a mod).
I believe there is a term for it, a double standard.
I’d like for this community to have high quality discussions. But it never will so long as the rules aren’t enforced on conservatives and leftists alike.
Except for that last line, I can’t in good conscience ban Pizzaman. As long as he brings the arguments, it’s not something I’ll do. After all, dissent is allowed in the comments.
And Winter and I just had a discussion about gun laws that stemmed from Pizzaman’s post. So, there’s no reason why people can’t agree or disagree on the substance and entirely ignore a thin façade of civility if that’s what you really think it is.
The problem is that his arguments are made from faulty, intentionally dishonest foundations. It doesn’t matter how many random propaganda sites he links, the whole thing is still a heap of garbage and lies.
So what?
Do you think the solution to mis-/dis-information is censorship or otherwise attempting to marginalize what you believe are “garbage and lies”? What makes his arguments invalid? Which of his statements are false and lies? How do you know? And why are you definitely right and why is he definitely wrong?
There’s this really interesting humans do. We become convinced of some viewpoint, whether through reason or, more likely, uncritical acceptance of some framework. It’s the right viewpoint. We assume others must also share our viewpoint. The truth is obvious to us. So disagreement is often treated as lies. The one who disagrees knows the truth, but chooses to say otherwise. They’re nefarious, despicable, and disrespectful for their duplicity in the face of an obvious truth.
But here’s the thing: people genuinely hold beliefs different than you. What you see as “faulty, intentionally dishonest foundations” can only be true if you are of the mind of Pizzamane and can definitively say he believes in something else entirely. You must have the mind of Pizzamane. Unless you’re really a psychic, you cannot do that. He may actually believe the foundations of his beliefs and you’ve been wrong this whole time. You can’t know that’s true either.
So what to do?
As hard as it might be, you have no choice but to except Pizzamane and other liberals and leftists at face value. You can consider our beliefs as garbage all you want. But leftists have every right to participate in this community, just as you do. And, I assure you, we often consider your beliefs garbage. When we disagree, then we should argue about the arguments, the statements and conclusions.
In short, he, or anyone else for that matter, will not be banned by me as long as they bring arguments. (…and don’t tell people to fuck off…😠)
Yes. When people continuously are shown to be bad actors uninterested in the actual facts, yes, it’s good for the health of a community built around discussion to remove such a person since all letting them stay does is place an extra burden on everyone else to continuously correct the lies such that they don’t propagate to unknowing people.
Funny how this standard applies to me, but not the conservatives around here who are throwing insults around (one of whom is a mod).
I believe there is a term for it, a double standard.
I’d like for this community to have high quality discussions. But it never will so long as the rules aren’t enforced on conservatives and leftists alike.
Thats fair, and thats exactly why I let you make the decision.