Nah. I’m not anti-AI categorically, just the grift, marketing, and billionaires around it. I’ve built and maintained production deployments that incorporate CNNs; I’ve been using AI (ML) since long before the attention paper and modern AI branding.
There is a valid moral point to be made about AI that is trained on the work of people who did NOT authorize that use of their work, which will then reduce the need for that work (meaning, reduce the incomes of such people or even make then unemployed).
As far as I know there is not a single AI used for vibe-coding which was trained on content whose makers willfully authorized that use of the content they made.
So whilst your point is valid for broader ML (and I personally agree with it), it is not sufficient to morally justify the kind used for vibe-coding or pretty much any LLMs or image generation AI engines, as they’re all trained on content not produced for or authorized for that purpose.
IMHO it’s only sufficient to morally justify things like character recognition or some forms of voice generation were the training dataset was properly authorized for that purpose.
I also use Amazon. I buy my groceries from my region’s local monopoly. I have a Facebook account (that I only use for marketplace). I also pay taxes, a portion of which goes to killing poor brown people for some reason…
Yes, I exist in a capitalist system and consume thusly when it benefits me to do so. Just because my money goes somewhere doesn’t mean I like the people whose pockets it goes into. I prefer using local models for most of my low-hanging-fruit LLM needs, but frontier models have their place, and their uses, and so I have a subscription (which I’ve shifted around a few times).
also really not a big fan of the major chip manufacturers and brands, but I have a computer filled with the things. If you want to open up a fab or a frontier lab and can compete with them on quality and even get in the ballpark of them on price, and aren’t a fucking Nazi, I’d be more than happy to use your product instead. However, here we are.
P. S. I also bought a Nestle chocolate bar the other day, and they’re basically a manifestation of satan. It is what it is…
Oh, yes, I’m very amoral, but I don’t think for this reason… I’m merely using a tool. You may disagree with how the tool was created. You may disagree with who owns the tool that I am renting. But that is sort of both the long and the short of it.
There’s a big argument we had over the open source inputs and license laundering (that is strictly about output similarity)… Image generation has a much stronger case, but even there the poster’s copyright is often weakened by the terms of service of various platforms that were scraped, in which cases the issue more becomes that they didn’t work out a deal with the websites before accessing the material, not that they didn’t pay the artists. The world is just a little bit fucked up. But regardless, that’s legal, not moral.
You could argue that me buying a Nestle chocolate bar is condoning and enabling murder, and I think to some degree, in a cosmic sense, you’d actually be right. But at that same degrees-of-separation, almost everything does, because the world is, as I said, pretty fucked up. And yes, this is a calculus I do because I’m weird.
My use of AI does not harm anyone. My subscription is to a company owned by assholes who are trying to destroy democracy and murder people. As most of my payments actually are, except to the few local businesses I frequent… But even they just buy their supplies off Amazon or bulk warehouses that are also owned by equally fucked up individuals. Somewhere down the chain, me buying a coffee is murdering someone. That’s just how the world works. I hate it, but I’m not oblivious to it. And so, yeah, I try to minimize my damage wherever possible, but ultimately, I am going to use AI because it will make my life better. I’m going to drink the coffee because it makes my life better. I am going to buy the cheap items that are probably made in a very unethical way because, so long as the quality is sufficient, my budget is tight and I have dependents.
Listen, I hate it, but I just live here. If I could snap my fingers and make AI ethical, I would. Admittedly, there are probably like a few billion other things I would probably prioritize a little bit more than the feelings of someone who posted their source code on GitHub without a permissive license, but yeah, theoretically it’s on the list somewhere.
Capitalist AI TM is being used to increase the suck and suffering of the world in wonderful new ways. It’s destroying democracies, it’s increasing surveillance. denying insurance claims. Destroying public trust. Obscuring accountability. Being used as an economic weapon and justification for building extremely cheap shitty annoying and irresponsible datacenters everywhere. I hate AI for a lot of reasons. The morality of copyright is not really high on the list there either.
It’s very nice that people like you are coming to terms with the terribleness that is paying for AI, but please understand that this is a debate I’ve had with myself since I was about twelve about almost literally everything. If you want to say I’m immoral or apathetic, you probably have a good argument, but ultimately I’m just at a loss and pissed off and trying to both maximize the quality of my life and the people I care about while, secondarily, minimizing the harm my existence inflicts on the world. The me, AI falls on one side of the line, while to you maybe it falls on another. but it is what it is.
You’re kinda right, but a few things can be avoided ! Specially… Why the fuck would you buy a fucking Nestle chocolat bar, when there are so many WAY better alternatives arround ?
Just go buy some real chocolat bar in a BIO local market and never touch that fucking nestle chocolat bar ever again !!!
I don’t think that’s actually the case. A lot of people say that, but inference is absurdly cheap, even compared to “api-subsidized” subscription prices. Where the math doesn’t work out is the fact that they’re training new models all the time. Any individual generation of model, if they were to just stop on it, (I suspect) would be profitable. But when you factor in continuous R&D and training costs of chasing the next gen, they’re just hemorrhaging money.
But that’s the game they’re playing because they don’t actually care about selling a product to customers; they care about investors. Nobody gets rich anymore by making a product and selling it to people. They get rich by making a product and then pitching it to investors and then getting bought out by a bigger fish or going public and having a big IPO.
The way the economy works now is that the companies are the products. Or at least their shares are, for a time…
I don’t think inference is breaking even with the rapid depreciation of the chips, etc. but they don’t let us see any of those finances for some reason.
But I take it back about using it as much as possible. Those CO2 emissions are inexcusable.
AI hurts the environment, and damages critical-thinking skills. It is trained on stolen art and private conversations, sorted overseas by traumatised, disgustingly underpaid data-labelers.
What do you think your phone is made of? What do you think your computers are made of? How do you think your bananas, chocolate, rice, tea, and a bunch of other things are made? Are you going to swear off those and judge those that don’t?
I use a Fairphone (and I’ll keep using it for the next decade, as far as I’m concerned), my computers are second-hand, I don’t eat bananas, chocolate, or rice, and I don’t drink tea.
These things pale in comparison to the consequences of using AI. It’s like comparing the carbon emissions of a gas stove to those of a private jet.
Peanut butter sandwiches / bagels, pasta, vegan cornbread, cereal with almond milk, I like to snack on peanuts, and sometimes I’ll treat myself with some grape juice.
Lmao, you sure about that? How do you think they get to you? Even before AI came along citizens from rich countries were contributing double or more to greenhouse gases than poorer nations.
How much did AI add on top? 5%? 10%?
I don’t eat bananas, chocolate, or rice, and I don’t drink tea
Kek. And you live on air and sunlight too, I’m sure.
Every life is precious… Gosh… Stop beeing a dickhead thinking that humanity is the center of everything and the all mighty living specie.
You’are the same group of person we wouldn’t have believed heliocentrism at the time… There is more than meets the eyes, open your mind and stop drinking the fucking propaganda !
You shouldn’t be vibecoding at all, bud. Toe dippers such as yourself help move to normalize this crap.
Nah. I’m not anti-AI categorically, just the grift, marketing, and billionaires around it. I’ve built and maintained production deployments that incorporate CNNs; I’ve been using AI (ML) since long before the attention paper and modern AI branding.
There is a valid moral point to be made about AI that is trained on the work of people who did NOT authorize that use of their work, which will then reduce the need for that work (meaning, reduce the incomes of such people or even make then unemployed).
As far as I know there is not a single AI used for vibe-coding which was trained on content whose makers willfully authorized that use of the content they made.
So whilst your point is valid for broader ML (and I personally agree with it), it is not sufficient to morally justify the kind used for vibe-coding or pretty much any LLMs or image generation AI engines, as they’re all trained on content not produced for or authorized for that purpose.
IMHO it’s only sufficient to morally justify things like character recognition or some forms of voice generation were the training dataset was properly authorized for that purpose.
You’re clearly not bothered by the grift if you’re using the billionaire’s products.
Oh, well, aren’t you smart…
I also use Amazon. I buy my groceries from my region’s local monopoly. I have a Facebook account (that I only use for marketplace). I also pay taxes, a portion of which goes to killing poor brown people for some reason…
Yes, I exist in a capitalist system and consume thusly when it benefits me to do so. Just because my money goes somewhere doesn’t mean I like the people whose pockets it goes into. I prefer using local models for most of my low-hanging-fruit LLM needs, but frontier models have their place, and their uses, and so I have a subscription (which I’ve shifted around a few times).
also really not a big fan of the major chip manufacturers and brands, but I have a computer filled with the things. If you want to open up a fab or a frontier lab and can compete with them on quality and even get in the ballpark of them on price, and aren’t a fucking Nazi, I’d be more than happy to use your product instead. However, here we are.
P. S. I also bought a Nestle chocolate bar the other day, and they’re basically a manifestation of satan. It is what it is…
Some things are a requirement to function in this capitalist society, but using slop generators isn’t one of those things. You do you though.
Neither is the chocolate bar, but yum.
Personally, I like things that improve the quality and enjoyment of my life. But agreed; to each their own.
That’s an “I only care that it’s good for me” justification, THE Sociopath’s justification.
That doesn’t actualy counter the point others were making - which was a moral point - it just indicates that you yourself are amoral.
Oh, yes, I’m very amoral, but I don’t think for this reason… I’m merely using a tool. You may disagree with how the tool was created. You may disagree with who owns the tool that I am renting. But that is sort of both the long and the short of it.
There’s a big argument we had over the open source inputs and license laundering (that is strictly about output similarity)… Image generation has a much stronger case, but even there the poster’s copyright is often weakened by the terms of service of various platforms that were scraped, in which cases the issue more becomes that they didn’t work out a deal with the websites before accessing the material, not that they didn’t pay the artists. The world is just a little bit fucked up. But regardless, that’s legal, not moral.
You could argue that me buying a Nestle chocolate bar is condoning and enabling murder, and I think to some degree, in a cosmic sense, you’d actually be right. But at that same degrees-of-separation, almost everything does, because the world is, as I said, pretty fucked up. And yes, this is a calculus I do because I’m weird.
My use of AI does not harm anyone. My subscription is to a company owned by assholes who are trying to destroy democracy and murder people. As most of my payments actually are, except to the few local businesses I frequent… But even they just buy their supplies off Amazon or bulk warehouses that are also owned by equally fucked up individuals. Somewhere down the chain, me buying a coffee is murdering someone. That’s just how the world works. I hate it, but I’m not oblivious to it. And so, yeah, I try to minimize my damage wherever possible, but ultimately, I am going to use AI because it will make my life better. I’m going to drink the coffee because it makes my life better. I am going to buy the cheap items that are probably made in a very unethical way because, so long as the quality is sufficient, my budget is tight and I have dependents.
Listen, I hate it, but I just live here. If I could snap my fingers and make AI ethical, I would. Admittedly, there are probably like a few billion other things I would probably prioritize a little bit more than the feelings of someone who posted their source code on GitHub without a permissive license, but yeah, theoretically it’s on the list somewhere.
Capitalist AI TM is being used to increase the suck and suffering of the world in wonderful new ways. It’s destroying democracies, it’s increasing surveillance. denying insurance claims. Destroying public trust. Obscuring accountability. Being used as an economic weapon and justification for building extremely cheap shitty annoying and irresponsible datacenters everywhere. I hate AI for a lot of reasons. The morality of copyright is not really high on the list there either.
It’s very nice that people like you are coming to terms with the terribleness that is paying for AI, but please understand that this is a debate I’ve had with myself since I was about twelve about almost literally everything. If you want to say I’m immoral or apathetic, you probably have a good argument, but ultimately I’m just at a loss and pissed off and trying to both maximize the quality of my life and the people I care about while, secondarily, minimizing the harm my existence inflicts on the world. The me, AI falls on one side of the line, while to you maybe it falls on another. but it is what it is.
You’re kinda right, but a few things can be avoided ! Specially… Why the fuck would you buy a fucking Nestle chocolat bar, when there are so many WAY better alternatives arround ?
Just go buy some real chocolat bar in a BIO local market and never touch that fucking nestle chocolat bar ever again !!!
The billionaires lose money each time you use their stuff. We should drain them as much as we can.
I don’t think that’s actually the case. A lot of people say that, but inference is absurdly cheap, even compared to “api-subsidized” subscription prices. Where the math doesn’t work out is the fact that they’re training new models all the time. Any individual generation of model, if they were to just stop on it, (I suspect) would be profitable. But when you factor in continuous R&D and training costs of chasing the next gen, they’re just hemorrhaging money.
But that’s the game they’re playing because they don’t actually care about selling a product to customers; they care about investors. Nobody gets rich anymore by making a product and selling it to people. They get rich by making a product and then pitching it to investors and then getting bought out by a bigger fish or going public and having a big IPO.
The way the economy works now is that the companies are the products. Or at least their shares are, for a time…
I don’t think inference is breaking even with the rapid depreciation of the chips, etc. but they don’t let us see any of those finances for some reason.
But I take it back about using it as much as possible. Those CO2 emissions are inexcusable.
“All AI use is bad” is the same absolutist crap as “every life is precious” or “all knives are bad”.
AI hurts the environment, and damages critical-thinking skills. It is trained on stolen art and private conversations, sorted overseas by traumatised, disgustingly underpaid data-labelers.
What do you think your phone is made of? What do you think your computers are made of? How do you think your bananas, chocolate, rice, tea, and a bunch of other things are made? Are you going to swear off those and judge those that don’t?
I use a Fairphone (and I’ll keep using it for the next decade, as far as I’m concerned), my computers are second-hand, I don’t eat bananas, chocolate, or rice, and I don’t drink tea.
These things pale in comparison to the consequences of using AI. It’s like comparing the carbon emissions of a gas stove to those of a private jet.
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I genuinely don’t eat those foods? Bananas and rice are gross, and the only good chocolates have milk, which isn’t vegan.
There’s ethical ways to eat them, sure, but I just don’t enjoy eating them. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Peanut butter sandwiches / bagels, pasta, vegan cornbread, cereal with almond milk, I like to snack on peanuts, and sometimes I’ll treat myself with some grape juice.
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Lmao, you sure about that? How do you think they get to you? Even before AI came along citizens from rich countries were contributing double or more to greenhouse gases than poorer nations.
How much did AI add on top? 5%? 10%?
Kek. And you live on air and sunlight too, I’m sure.
“How do [I] think they get to [me]?” What are “they”?
5-10% is an insane amount of carbon emissions, and dismissing it is particularly inane.
I actually hate sunlight, and prefer living off pickles and peanut butter sandwiches. I do need air, though.
Every life is precious… Gosh… Stop beeing a dickhead thinking that humanity is the center of everything and the all mighty living specie.
You’are the same group of person we wouldn’t have believed heliocentrism at the time… There is more than meets the eyes, open your mind and stop drinking the fucking propaganda !
Edit: haha… Fixed an issue with my brain !
It’s OK, bud. You’re allowed to use the slop machines without feeling the need to defend it.
It’s OK amateur, it’s fine to have an ignorant opinion.
Did you call me amateur as an insult? Lol what?