Propaganda works.
What’s funny is I can’t tell if you’re talking about younger Americans refusing to hate China or older Americans chanting “China Bad!”
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300,000 people are on the organ donor wait-list in China at this very moment.
You’re a perfect example of the power of propaganda lol
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Uyghurs are “their own people” and the USA has far more of its citizens incarcerated than China does.
The US has a ton of problems, I’m not saying it’s a great country to live in necessarily (I wouldn’t move there given the choice). But it’s not a dictatorship where laws are optional for the government.
Maybe freedom doesn’t mean anything to you when you’re not the one being reeducated though.
But it’s not a dictatorship where laws are optional for the government.
Neither is China. Also lol at saying laws aren’t optional for government in the USA.
Maybe freedom doesn’t mean anything to you when you’re not the one being reeducated though.
Again, the USA has vastly more people incarcerated than China.
Suddenly there’s no waitlist for organs after these camps start going up?
Source: it came to me in a dream
Both tbh
American failures are being used to prop up Chinese successes. This is particularly true in urbanism discussions. China is by no means perfect and thinking that they are is harmful to progress.
Perfection doesn’t exist, but China is on the right track imo
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I’m a fan of their life expectancies surpassing the US - though that’s barely an accomplishment, every developed country seems to have beaten America in that regard lol
Totalitarian here meaning: an enemy of the USA
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The USA is less than 5% of the world’s population but has 24% of the world’s prisoners. Who is authoritarian?
Prisoners in the USA produce over $11Bn worth of goods for for-profit corporations unde slave labor. Who has slave labor?
The USA has camps that concentrate native Americans and South Americans into very small space where they die diseases of poverty and neglect. Who has concentration camps?
The US Congress, upon revelations that the US military was spying on every single American citizen by recording every single phone conversation, text message, and all internet traffic, granted retroactive immunity to all the companies that helped the military do this. Who has an unfettered domestic spying apparatus?
The USA produces almost nothing, yet, the per-capita carbon footprint of America is vastly larger than the per-capita carbon footprint of China. Who spews more carbon shamelessly?
The purchasing power of the average Chinese person is higher than the purchasing power of the average American. In 70 years, China lifted 800 million people out of poverty. In those same 70 years, the US has gotten worse on life expectancy, infant mortality, and maternal mortality. Who exploits their people more?
The USA sterilized black and brown women well into the 1970s under eugenics programs that they started well before the Third Reich.
Everything you think you know about China has come from a wide array of news sources, all of which publish that exact same political line, and all the opposing viewpoints are crushed before they even make it to the editors. Forbes magazine is part of a media empire built by the fortune of the Forbes who built a financial empire funded by the Forbes who built a railroad empire funded by the Forbes that made his fortune selling opium to China when the British literally forced the Chinese to reverse their laws banning opium at gunpoint. Who controls their media?
Your perspective is so thoroughly saturated with centuries of propaganda that you can’t even imagine the idea that it’s wrong. You literally don’t even know what would constitute evidence that you are wrong.
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Seriously? Are that uninformed? Literally everything I said is well documented as massively larger on the USA side than on the China side. The USA has always had the largest prison population on the planet per capita, even during the height of the GULAG system in the USSR. There really is no way China is worse. Do some basic research.
Correct, from the information given in the post above, it seems like America is doing it all on a much larger scale.
Seriously? Are that uninformed? Literally everything I said is well documented as massively larger on the USA side than on the China side. The USA has always had the largest prison population on the planet per capita, even during the height of the GULAG system in the USSR. There really is no way China is worse. Do some basic research.
Source: your ass.
This is really just common knowledge at this point.
E: looks like the CCP has even infiltrated the mods of this community.
Its actually all sourced from one single guy who has stated it is his mission from God to bring down China.
It’s common knowledge because propaganda is incredibly effective.
I get paid 100000000 Xi bucks every time I remove a post. Obviously Lemmy is the most important social media platform in the world that China needs to control at all costs. The communists have even banned brainrot racism on this subreddit.
For the record, though, any nation-state that got big did all of that. That is literally what industrialization has more or less always looked like. The US used to run sweatshops and disappear/murder activists of any kind, especially the ones who pushed back against the pennies-an-hour sweatshops. It wasn’t until the 20th century that US courts even started reading the First Amendment to mean the government had an obligation to not fuck you up just for your political beliefs (see this title since that’s a larger historical argument than can fit on Lemmy).
You don’t get social freedom and rights in an industrial society until it hits a very high point of development. This has been true of more or less anywhere.
While we could argue China should have looked for a better way to develop, the United States also helped create an international system in the middle of the 20th century where the only real option was to aggressively industrialize in an even worse way than the US did, or just be subject to outright neocolonialism (and then develop your industry also in a bad way, also likely without rights, and then not have a rounded enough economy to do anything other than be exploited by richer countries), and then, when China decided to just take a heavy state-led path that employed capitalism and tools of standard industrial nation-building to set themselves up as a powerful capitalist nation-state, like they were “supposed” to, Western countries, the US in particular, bought in hard and financed everything they’re now recoiling against.
China’s great sin, in this context (and while I’m being slightly sarcastic there, sure, the way they’re industrializing/running shit is bad), was choosing to use their enormous land-mass, resource base, and population to not just be on the very bottom. If America/the West had wanted to see the world industrialize better and more humanely, they should have tried at literally any point to help the world industrialize better and more humanely. At this point, it’s a little absurd for Westerners to complain a situation they created and financed extensively for decades.
Really not looking for whataboutisms to justify their atrocities…
I don’t know that I justified it, just pointed out a basic historical truth about industrialization. With a shred of historical context it’s trivial to turn the conversation from “ew China evil” to “is it possible to industrialize without this shit?” which is a question anybody should have been asking from the very beginning.
At the end of the day, lambasting China for doing all the things industrializing nations have always done, without offering a concretely better, alternative path for industrialization, and simultaneously demanding they achieve a similar level of development as the West without doing anything the West did to get there, is honestly just pointless. The West imposed a competitive market system based on the preposterous violence of industrial production on the rest of the world, and are now going to be collectively hoisted by our own petards over the next few decades.
If we wanted them to industrialize without shit like ethnic homogenization/genocide/systematic exploitation of labor/everything else, we might have tried blazing a path to economic development that wasn’t based on those things.
That’s why it costs significantly less to import virtually everything from the opposite side of the planet.
This is not true. It’s so cheap to get the goods here because Canada and USA subsidizes the freight services from taxpayer money.
The USA is less than 5% of the world’s population but has 24% of the world’s prisoners. Who is authoritarian?
Prisoners in the USA produce over $11Bn worth of goods for for-profit corporations unde slave labor. Who has slave labor?
The USA has camps that concentrate native Americans and South Americans into very small space where they die diseases of poverty and neglect. Who has concentration camps?
The US Congress, upon revelations that the US military was spying on every single American citizen by recording every single phone conversation, text message, and all internet traffic, granted retroactive immunity to all the companies that helped the military do this. Who has an unfettered domestic spying apparatus?
The USA produces almost nothing, yet, the per-capita carbon footprint of America is vastly larger than the per-capita carbon footprint of China. Who spews more carbon shamelessly?
The purchasing power of the average Chinese person is higher than the purchasing power of the average American. In 70 years, China lifted 800 million people out of poverty. In those same 70 years, the US has gotten worse on life expectancy, infant mortality, and maternal mortality. Who exploits their people more?
The USA sterilized black and brown women well into the 1970s under eugenics programs that they started well before the Third Reich.
Everything you think you know about China has come from a wide array of news sources, all of which publish that exact same political line, and all the opposing viewpoints are crushed before they even make it to the editors. Forbes magazine is part of a media empire built by the fortune of the Forbes who built a financial empire funded by the Forbes who built a railroad empire funded by the Forbes that made his fortune selling opium to China when the British literally forced the Chinese to reverse their laws banning opium at gunpoint. Who controls their media?
Your perspective is so thoroughly saturated with centuries of propaganda that you can’t even imagine the idea that it’s wrong. You literally don’t even know what would constitute evidence that you are wrong.
No no no, clearly you’re suffering under Western propaganda. In China there is zero crime and everyone gets a golden car on their 15th birthday. It’s true and If you disagree you’re a propaganda chicken. (/s)
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Anyone still trying to pedal the “secret Uyghur genocide” nonsense at this point, long after the Western media has given up on it, and with Isreal showing us what an actual genocide of a captive Muslim population looks like, is either knowingly lying or terminally brainwashed.
Isreal showing us what an actual genocide of a captive Muslim population looks like
…are you under the impression that this is the first genocide in the history of the human race?
What a complete non-sequitur question.
While the Americans are committing a far worse genocide in Palestine, the Uyghurs are definitely being genocided in China.
In the same way that Saddam “definitely had WMDs” in 2003.
Like I said, anyone still peddling this “secret genocide” conspiracy is knowingly lying or hopelessly indoctrinated.
refusing to hate
Lmao
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No CPC ever sold off my future to fund forever wars
This kinda looks like a bad poll. The wording seems to setup a bad choice of extremes. The respondent has to either choose “friendly” or “an enemy”. But the relationship between the US and China is a much more complex thing. The US and China are certainly in competition in a number of areas, economically and geopolitically. The induction of China to the WTO in 2001 impacted the US’s manufacturing sector negatively (see: https://www.bls.gov/opub/btn/volume-9/forty-years-of-falling-manufacturing-employment.htm). The US and China are at odds over the fate of Taiwan. But, in spite of all that, the US and China have deep trade links which benefit both countries greatly. And both countries are likely better off than they would be without the other. Global trade is generally positive for the economies involved, though global trade can also fuck individuals inside each economy, including driving wealth concentration and harming the economically disadvantaged and people whose skills don’t align well with the industries their country is focused on.
Trying to boil US-China relations down to either Friendly or “Enemy” misses a lot of the nuance and may mean people aren’t giving an accurate picture of how they view China.
I’m neither a friend nor an enemy to most people in the world.
But when it comes to orgs, I’m an enemy of most od them, and definitely an enemy of every State.
I cannot view the article but from the graph it seems “young” means those aged 18-44. They should have been more granular here because variations within this range would have been interesting to see as well.
I visit China frequently for work and feel that the impression most older Americans have of China is incredibly out of touch. The traditional media portrayal of the country is definitely a part of this. Yes, it’s certainly an authoritarian state, but this doesn’t change whether the people are nice or what they want in life.
Technically every state is an authoritarian state.
I think it’s probably better to simply say that “authoritarian” is a buzzword, though your implied argument that all states work by exerting authority on (at least some portion of) their population is certainly true. Anyone who uses a term like “authoritarian” rather than even a marginally more-descriptive negative term like, idk, “bureaucratic” or “state capitalist” (which gets misused, but I digress) is immediately demonstrating themselves to have untrustworthy judgement on the topic
maybe bring back totalitarian and use it against countries like the US? have a word that, like Huey P. Newton said regarding coining the term ‘pig’ for police, “highlights the contradiction”, in this case, between the selective usage of a word and it’s inherent meaning, none of which is understandable without contradictions from a prescriptive linguistic context
You are probably right, I was really just trying to talk about how, as it currently stands, the people who use the term are basically just expressing either that they fell for a thought-terminating cliche or are expecting their audience to fall for it.
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Authoritarianism was a bullshit term invented by child-fucker libertarians to frame themselves as being the good guys.
I mean, yes, that too.
Hot take. What’s the eli5 behind the idea?
Well, every state enforces its laws and its territorial claims through the use of unilateral violence; if a person doesn’t agree with a state’s law, the state isn’t going to exempt them from it, it will make them follow it by force. More importantly, the state maintains that this is a moral and legitimate use of force: that it has the authority to do this.
And yes most states (all states really) have procedures by which their citizens can have a say in what the laws should be, but what they never do is cede any authority. Everybody has to follow the law, and will be forced to if needed.
the state maintains that this is a moral and legitimate use of force: that it has the authority to do this.
I don’t necessarily agree with “moral”. In western democracies laws and use of force doesn’t legitimize itself by a call to morality usually. Just using some kind of authority, doesn’t make a government authoritarian by any common definition of the word.
I don’t necessarily agree with “moral”. In western democracies laws and use of force doesn’t legitimize itself by a call to morality usually.
It absolutely does imo, it legitimises itself through an appeal to an underlying moral framework.
Just using some kind of authority, doesn’t make a government authoritarian by any common definition of the word.
Actually it pretty much does, atleast if you actually stick to definition. In practice, of course, the word is mostly just used as a snarl word to attack enemy countries, but at that point definitions have gone out the windows.
It absolutely does imo, it legitimises itself through an appeal to an underlying moral framework.
Yes, but very indirectly. We don’t have a “moral police”, but one that enforces laws which are, as you say, legitimized by the people as a sovereign.
So you don’t see police stopping people on “moral grounds” in some vague interpretation.
What about abortion? Tracking if women are pregnant and hunting them down if then stop being pregnant.
You misunderstand me fairly severely. I did not say that the state enforces “moral law”, or anything even close to that.
I said that the state maintains that it is moral for it to enforce law at all. Because generally speaking, it is not considered moral to unilaterally compel people, with violence if necessary, to behave in ways they do not agree to, and to not believe they should have to.
And every functional family.
wait i have something relevant to say too…
All happy families are alike, all unhappy families are unhappy in their own way. — Anna Karenina
It is authoritarian to ask your children to go to bed on time
no I think it’s, um actually, only when parents tell their kids in china / s <— to indicate it’s sarcasm
Traffic lights in China is a sign that the CPC will go to extreme lengths to micro manage traffic and human movement.
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That makes no sense.
It absolutely does.
I’ve been once for work. Didn’t have an issue with anyone there. I live in Australia now and a few of my friends are Chinese. In fact, I’ve had 2 Chinese really good friends / best friends
None of them agree with the government at all
Isn’t it a general trend that younger people, on average, are less xenophobic / racist / bigoted than the previous generation? I also remember reading somewhere that younger Chinese people are friendlier to Japan, South Korea and the US than their parents.
My company has an office in China and I’ve been there many many times.
Chinese people are like all other people - same needs, same hopes and dreams, same fears, same drivers. In the city where our office is located, they are extremely hard working and want to ensure a better future for their family. Just like most American cities.
Their city is very high tech, moreso than many American cities because they skipped a lot of legacy technology.
They don’t necessarily subscribe to the same moral/value system as Americans, for example they often see copying each other’s ideas as a compliment whereas Americans see it as stealing. Kind of like - if it’s possible to copy, then it’s fair game - so don’t make it possible if you don’t want it copied. Perhaps that drives a different kind of innovation.
Obviously there are many more cultural differences. But as a people, we are all essentially working with the same needs.
All that being said I don’t appreciate the great firewall when I’mthere, the censorship, and the fear they have about discussing banned topics. I don’t appreciate the high-tech security cameras at every corner, or all the tracking of activities. The younger generations tolerate this for now because they are wealthier than their parents and told to cooperate, but that may not hold long term.
I don’t appreciate the high-tech security cameras at every corner, or all the tracking of activities.
I’ve got bad news for you about the West.
The kids are alright
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We don’t need to forget how great Hong Kong was up until a few years ago.
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Are you talking about China or America
Yes.
, but at what cost?
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Yeah, capitalist plutocratic murderous bastards
“…and here’s what we need to do about it.”
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Tiktok is doing its job.
Reminds me of War Game by Philip K. Dick.
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Westerners love projecting
Lol
Further proof that Reddit and gamers aren’t the best representation of young people. Also really liking the fits that they’re wearing in the picture.
