China doesn’t have Christian Zionists who hate Muslims and relish in their misery. China might actually be a better partner for peace in the Middle East, they already proved that by brokering peace between Saudi Arabia and Iran to the US’s objection.
Bruh, they don’t need zionists when they can, themselves, be super xenophobic by themselves. Their treatment of Uyghurs does not inspire confidence that any actions made won’t be in benevolence to the suppressed.
Why is the Organization of Islamic Cooperation and most Turkic and Muslim countries don’t think there is an Uyghur genocide? Why is it only western countries with rampant Sinophobia and their governments slaughtering Muslims under the guise of fighting terrorism that seem to be concerned?
Would you believe a Klansman that claims that it is the Navajo who are actually the real racists and they are concerned for the safety of minorities? Western governments are the Klansman here.
It is wild seeing westerners who unabashedly hate China and Muslims pretend to be concerned. Why would Muslims speak out about all the massacres and genocides except the one the west cares about? Are we supposed to believe that Muslims are afraid of China but not the US?
Your first paragraph is GOOD. Really well written, almost worthy enough of copypasta response. I have pointed it out rigorously over the last few years with no sensible replies.
English is not my first language. So thank you, I try my best.
There is little argument other than whataboutism and ‘I have a black friend’ here. I am aware it’s not a popular view on lemmy.ml, but these multiple things can be true. Western countries can totally be anti Chinese, other Muslim countries can totally be racist to other Muslim’s of the ‘wrong race’ just as much as a Christian. It does not change what is occurring in the xinjiang region. An individual can assess the actions and history of an organization without being themselves group into another organization they may or may not belong or support.
Uyghur are Turkic and there are many Turkic countries the most significant is Turkiye. You are clearly clueless. You would rather believe that Turkic and Muslim peoples are racist to the Uyghurs rather than accept you have been misled.
So Muslims are not racist to Palestinians, Rohingya, Kashmiris, Chechens, Afghans, Bosnians, etc… but only to the Uyghurs. It is far simpler to accept and believe that westerners just want to pit Muslims against Chinese. Westerners kill us and displace us by the millions, but we should fear China?
To be fair, the military junta in Egypt are cooperating heavily with Israel in it’s genocidal efforts due to geopolitical reasons.
I wish more Arab governments were like Yemen’s. Too many corrupt collaborators.
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Liberals will believe literally anything if it’s written on wikipedia.
Imagine fucking citing Wikipedia lmfao
Proper sourcing, friends, is important.
Everyone, please be civil. I understand that tensions are high, but please refrain from personal attacks.
Ordinary China W.
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Who can tell them though? US, which is actively enabling genocide not to mention other atrocities it made all over the world?
The Organization of Islamic Cooperation and most Turkic and Muslim countries don’t think there is an Uyghur genocide. So let’s focus on the one that’s actually real and everyone -except Western regimes- acknowledge it is happening.
Fun fact: If you tried googling the OIC report on Uyghur I linked here, you will only get results for western outlets condemning it. It is clear who is using censorship to control the narrative https://www.google.com/search?q=oic+uyghur+report
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Found those WMDs in Iraq yet?
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The difference between your average liberal and a tankie is that liberals will openly say that there were no WMDs in Iraq and that the invasion was a mistake.
But liberals will still fall in line and support the current war as they always do, only after the fact they reasses their position.
Find a tankie that would ever actually criticize the CCP the same way.
I didn’t know the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation were a tankie group. Does that mean all Muslims are tankies?
They only say that because enough time has passed. When it was current they were all on board and were calling everyone who disagreed ‘Saddam Lovers’. Just like how in 20 years they’ll all be saying that they never believed the Uyghur genocides claims, but how dare those tankies doubt [insert current atrocity propaganda here]!
The Iraq War inspired mass protests immediately that set records in several American cities, but sure.
You are correct though that the narrative has shifted with time. So I take it that this has also happened in China, such that someone could organize a protest on the Tiananmen anniversary, right?
Tiananmen
What a desperate attempt to change the topic.
Also, just realized that you said that the invasion was a ‘mistake’, not a deliberate lie. Is there a single accusation that the West has leveled against its enemies that you don’t automatically believe?
I mean, yes, Bush lied to the American public. This is not particularly controversial.
And given that the original point was the difference between the ability and willingness of liberals to criticize our own governments relative to tankies, Tiananmen is a perfectly relevant topic, though I’m hardly surprised that you’d clearly like to avoid it. And if randomly bringing up supposedly unrelated topics is something to avoid, might I ask why you brought up WMDs in Iraq in a thread about the Uyghers in the first place?
This isn’t reddit. There’s no corporation here to censor anything that challenges western propaganda.
The Organization of Islamic Cooperation are tankies? Muslims are tankies?
If you’re not white you’re a tankie.
The biggest problem is the number likely being exaggerated.
The real amount of Uyghurs in concentration camps is completely unknown but guestimated around 30.000 to 100.000.
The 1 million number is by a single source called Radio Free Asia which does not offer any evidence.
The American way to spread propaganda is to take something that is true, and then heavily exaggerate it without providing evidence for the most extreme claims.
It’s likely to be higher than that. Even the proportion of imprisoned Black people in America is higher than that.
Anyone still repeating the “Uighur genocide” conspiracy theory in this day and age - long after the western media has backed away from it, independent bodies have found no evidence, Isreal demonstrating that you can’t ‘secretly’ genocide a population without evidence getting out, and all the original proponents of the conspiracy now one hundred percent on board for the genocide of Palestinians - is either knowingly lying or terminally propagandized.
Who do I believe, a random smug lemmier, or a well sourced wikipedia article?
Listen man, even in the shitty college I went to we weren’t allowed to use Wikipedia as a source. Why? Because it’s often laced with misinformation and has no standards for its citations.
Also when you’re trying to argue against a genocide being CIA propaganda, you cannot site literally the lowest effort citation that the CIA could ever hope for if they wanted to spread propaganda for any given thing.
Listen man, even in the shitty college I went to we weren’t allowed to use Wikipedia as a source. Why? Because it’s often laced with misinformation and has no standards for its citations.
Listen man, even in the very good college that I went to, everyone starts at Wikipedia and then uses it’s sources since if they’re good sources then they’ll be a helpful jumping off point.
Also when you’re trying to argue against a genocide being CIA propaganda, you cannot site literally the lowest effort citation that the CIA could ever hope for if they wanted to spread propaganda for any given thing.
Peer reviewed journal articles are not the lowest effort citation that the CIA could manipulate. Again, the wiki article has numerous sources (which I’ve read through), do you have any sources to contradict the information that they contain?
You do realize that… The peer review process is not, inherently, robust, right?
There’s a reason different publication venues have different levels of prestige. Nature and Science? Very prestigious. The Lancet? Very prestigious. NeurIPS? Very prestigious. The Journal of Genocide Research? Not so prestigious.
Bro it too late to get your money back from that college?
Imagine citing Wikipedia lmao
You’d get laughed out of any academic context in a heartbeat
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You realise that Wikipedia is not one iota more credible than a lemmy comment right? You won’t believe people here, but funnyguy1234 (actual name of one that articles writers) is a font of academic rigor? Also lol at well sourced - you never bothered to check them, if you did you wouldn’t say that. Here’s a challenge; what were the pieces of primary evidence that convinced you?
I was convinced by this Bell¿ncat satellite image of a concentration camp interning over a million people: http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=31.416944&lon=34.365234&z=11&m=w
Once when I compared the Uyghur genocide conspiracy to WMDs in Iraq, I had a Lemmy Worlder unironically reply “They’re completely different! WMDs in Iraq was just a claim from the Bush admin, but we have satellite pictures of the Uyghur genocide!”.
They are completely different and this is a dumbass comment.
Just because a massive organization made up of millions of people lied once doesn’t mean everything else they ever say is a lie. That’s dumbass child level reasoning. Present sourced evidence that contradicts the sourced infromation in the wikipedia article or don’t bother commenting.
Just because a massive organization made up of millions of people lied once
It seems you are unaware that these kinds of lies are rampant and have been documented for decades, to the point where reliable patterns have emerged:
- Michael Parenti, 1986: Inventing Reality: The Politics Of The Mass Media
- Edward Herman & Noam Chomsky, 1988: Manufacturing Consent: The Political Economy of the Mass Media.
A five minute primer: Noam Chomsky - The 5 Filters of the Mass Media Machine
.
Perhaps you’re unaware of many of the US’s atrocities, because many are hidden or distorted through the above methods. Nobody lies like the imperial core propaganda machine.
Uh yeah it is, it sources it’s information
Yeah, and those sources are often dog shit.
They’re better than yours, the ones in that article link to journal articles, you’ve provided absolutely nothing.
Which journal articles did you find compelling?
You spelled NATOpedia wrong.
Is there any reason to think “prolewiki” is more reliable than wikipedia?
ProleWiki is a collaborative Marxist-Leninist project aiming to build an anti-imperialist communist encyclopedia with information on current events, communist parties worldwide, countries, as well as hosting a library of texts important to the international communist movement.
Seems like it’s openly biased. And while I can appreciate the honesty, I’m not sure how it can be viewed as reliable.
Wikipedia is extremely unreliable and biased, and not even on political topics, even linguistical and scientific articles are prone to huge issues. (see: Scottish Gaelic) If you wish to call prolewiki as biased, I must tell you that wikipedia is even worse, it just has a more liberal bias. Follow their sources and you will see. ProleWiki discloses the bias up front, and has an squad of source patrollers who make sure when a claim is made, it is grounded in reality that can be sourced. Sure, there aren’t that many articles on it yet, but we strive to set a high standard because the slightest weak link in the project will be used by people like yourself to discredit us.
Disclaimer: I am a ProleWiki contributor.
So you’re aiming at truth, not communistic propaganda? I’m wondering why you/they choose to call it ProleWiki.
Was what I quoted up there a weak link? It’s on the footer of every page.
why you choose to call it ProleWiki.
Because it’s the wiki of the people instead of the wiki of bourgeoisie interests, why the fuck else
Communistic propaganda
lol, and you think the slop you’ve seen your entire life has been absolutely unbiased? We do analyze matters though the lens of marxism-lenninism, we make sure our sources and research is decent, and if that’s “communist propaganda” to you well, your loss lmao. But I have a hard time to take criticism from people who believe Adrian Zenz on anything
Is there any reason to think wikipedia is reliable?
Well of course it is, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliability_of_Wikipedia
/s, slightly
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Can you provide a source for your claim that “western media has backed away from the claim of Uighur genocide”?
Even two and a half years ago, AP news - one of the leading proponents of the genocide theory - was already walking back their claims from genocides to just nebulous oppression (and even saying that was over, so don’t ask for current evidence).
Can you find many examples of mainstream media from the last 6 months still claiming an ongoing genocide?
This article seems to say that China has shifted to subtler methods of subjugation, possibly due to Western sanctions. Not that it was fabricated.
I’m not here to argue about the definition of genocide. IMHO, if there’s smoke, there’s fire.
asks for evidence that mainstream media has backed away from genocide claims.
Gets given an example of one of the most gung-ho on the genocide theory outlets already backing away from the claim years ago, instead falling back to nebulous claims of conveniently hard to demonstrate oppression.
“Well that just proves there is a genocide!”
Least bad faith sinophobe. How about you provide recent sources like I asked.
IMHO, if there’s smoke, there’s fire.
Big believer in the white genocide in South Africa then? Found those WMDs in Iraq?
Subjugation like… By applying the same standard to ethnic minorities that they do to the Han majority? People don’t realize how far affirmative action in China used to go. There were protests against it. Weibo kept exploding complaining about it.
Sadly, I think most of the time it is the second case.
A KGB spy and a CIA agent meet up in a bar for a friendly drink.
“I have to admit, I’m always so impressed by Soviet propaganda. You really know how to get people worked up,” the CIA agent says.
“Thank you,” the KGB says. “We do our best but truly, it’s nothing compared to American propaganda. Your people believe everything your state media tells them.”
The CIA agent drops his drink in shock and disgust. “Thank you friend, but you must be confused… There’s no propaganda in America.”
I hate how it’s always done like this too. When a genocide has been lied about it should be just as televised as when the lying was happening. Mostly because now instead of getting apologies from all of my friends for calling me a genocide denier they’ll just still think it was a genocide and I’ll just never talk to them about it again or else I’ll have to come across as smug.
And resisting urges like that is the only reason I still have any friends in the first place.
My comments still get deleted on lemmy.world. Most Lemmy instances are all-in for Five Eyes propaganda. You’d think they’d be better than corporate social media platforms, but not so much.
I think it’s a systemic issue that can’t be addressed in terms of individual mods.
Most instances are admined by Anglosphere labor aristocrats of the imperial core, who have little to no class consciousness.
They also have an underdeveloped media literacy while believing they have exemplary media literacy. Search for “media bias” and you’ll find tons of bullshit media horseshoe theory charts like the one below, which conflate enlightened centrism with factualness. Look at !world@lemmy.world which uses Media Bias/Fact Check as their North star,
which is run by a member of the Council on Foreign Relations[not the same person after all].
They subscribe to the new post-Trump, “post-truth” media literacy curriculum, a curriculum that was paid for and crafted by the US military-industrial complex: New Media Literacy Standards Aim to Combat ‘Truth Decay’
This week, the RAND Corporation released a new set of media literacy standards designed to support schools in this task.
The standards are part of RAND’s ongoing project on “truth decay”: a phenomenon that RAND researchers describe as “the diminishing role that facts, data, and analysis play in our political and civic discourse.”
Few of these people have read Inventing Reality or Manufacturing Consent. They tend to stay within the Global North corporate Overton window, not recognizing the bubble they’re in.
Not sure if post-edit CCs work, so upthread ⬆️ @brain_in_a_box@lemmy.ml @zephyreks@lemmy.ml @PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml @PanArab@lemmy.ml @yogthos@lemmy.ml @nekandro@lemmy.ml @carl_marks_1312@lemmy.ml
The funny thing about it is that news is no more or less truthful than it’s always been, it’s just more upfront about it. People are tribal, and they’ve been told that their tribe is flawless while the other tribe is flawed.
If you think about this for a second and apply some basic game theory, you’d realize what the natural steady state is.
I know that’s true in the US, specifically. The FCC abandoned the Fairness doctrine, and Citizens United v. FEC removed even the semblance of a barrier between the capitalist class and the political machine. Now most corporate media outlets pretty nakedly align themselves with one of the two political parties. But since both parties always ultimately answer to the capitalist class, these changes are largely cosmetic. It’s still a bunch of kayfabe in a rigged game.
we can name-and-shame. i don’ think there is a systemic fix.
Hi there! Your text contains links to other Lemmy communities, here are correct links for Lemmy users: !modabuse@lemmy.world
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We really are genocide deniers. We deny the CIA’s fake genocide narrative.
I’ve great news for you then, because China never started genociding the Uyghur people.
As part of the new Cold War, the US organized and funded terrorists for the purposes of destabilizing the Xinjiang region of China. And after those destabilization efforts failed, CIA cut-out NGOs like the World Uyghur Congress spun the fable of the “Uyghur genocide,” again as part of the new Cold War with China. The US wants to balkanize the country or ideally regime-change it entirely.
The blueprint of regime change operations
We see here for example the evolution of public opinion in regards to China. In 2019, the ‘Uyghur genocide’ was broken by the media (Buzzfeed, of all outlets). In this story, we saw the machine I described up until now move in real time. Suddenly, newspapers, TV, websites were all flooded with stories about the ‘genocide’, all day, every day. People whom we’d never heard of before were brought in as experts — Adrian Zenz, to name just one; a man who does not even speak a word of Chinese.
Organizations were suddenly becoming very active and important. The World Uyghur Congress, a very serious-sounding NGO, is actually an NED Front operating out of Germany […]. From their official website, they declare themselves to be the sole legitimate representative of all Uyghurs — presumably not having asked Uyghurs in Xinjiang what they thought about that.
The WUC also has ties to the Grey Wolves, a fascist paramilitary group in Turkey, through the father of their founder, Isa Yusuf Alptekin.
Documents came out from NGOs to further legitimize the media reporting. This is how a report from the very professional-sounding China Human Rights Defenders (CHRD) came to exist. They claimed ‘up to 1.3 million’ Uyghurs were imprisoned in camps. What they didn’t say was how they got this number: they interviewed a total of 10 people from rural Xinjiang and asked them to estimate how many people might have been taken away. They then extrapolated the guesstimates they got and arrived at the 1.3 million figure.
Sanctions were enacted against China — Xinjiang cotton for example had trouble finding buyers after Western companies were pressured into boycotting it. Instead of helping fight against the purported genocide, this act actually made life more difficult for the people of Xinjiang who depend on this trade for their livelihood (as we all do depend on our skills to make a livelihood).
Any attempt China made to defend itself was met with more suspicion. They invited a UN delegation which was blocked by the US. The delegation eventually made it there, but three years later. The Arab League also visited Xinjiang and actually commended China on their policies — aimed at reducing terrorism through education and social integration, not through bombing like we tend to do in the West.
In addition to the arbitrary detention of Uyghurs in state-sponsored camps, government policies have included forced labor,[5][6] suppression of Uyghur religious practices,[7] political indoctrination,[8] forced sterilization,[9] forced contraception,[10][11] and forced abortion.[12][13]
Sure, nothing to see here /s
Is this the part of the story where you’re reminded that forced sterilization and forced abortion has also been applied to the Han majority in support of one-child policy? No? Oh.
You’re an idiot [1][2][3][4][2][0][6][9]
Indisputable reasoning
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Ad hominem, zero points
loud farting noise
Why is it that you say these falsehoods here in this forum but on the other social media you complain about the Chinese state and you push for democracy in China? Where are the photographs that you said you have of the Tiananmen Square massacre?
Why is it that you say these falsehoods here in this forum but on the other social media you complain about the Chinese state and you push for democracy in China?
Let me guess, in 2002 you were calling anyone who didn’t believe Iraq had WMDs a “Saddam lover”.
