The whole “what could have stopped X” question is a loaded one. But regardless, the answer is gun control, and U.S. law should learn from modern German law:
It’s crazy how even this right wing sources seems to understand that gun control is necessary and a requirement for low gun death rates, given that they admit right at the begging of the article that they have amongst the lowest death rates out there.
If more guns & lax gun laws made us safe, we would should expect to see the opposite. Yet we don’t, because anybody with half a brain understands that a tool whose purpose is to kill as easily as possible will make killing easier when it is around untrained people/people with insufficient reason to own it/people who store them poorly.
That’s a 75x smaller gun homicide rate. We aren’t going to get that small of a rate without gun control.
Inb4 somebody calls me a troll despite putting effort into this: fuck off
Mate, here’s a great example of you intentionally pissing everyone off. Look at how much effort you put into the comment, you got sources and everything. But you’re still managed to piss everyone off, while maintaining a thin facade of civility. We can see past it at this point, you aren’t here to discuss or anything, just to troll.
A try-hard troll is still a troll.
I’m still going to let peepin make the final decision, but I fully recommend a ban.
Except for that last line, I can’t in good conscience ban Pizzaman. As long as he brings the arguments, it’s not something I’ll do. After all, dissent is allowed in the comments.
And Winter and I just had a discussion about gun laws that stemmed from Pizzaman’s post. So, there’s no reason why people can’t agree or disagree on the substance and entirely ignore a thin façade of civility if that’s what you really think it is.
As long as he brings the arguments, it’s not something I’ll do
The problem is that his arguments are made from faulty, intentionally dishonest foundations. It doesn’t matter how many random propaganda sites he links, the whole thing is still a heap of garbage and lies.
Do you think the solution to mis-/dis-information is censorship or otherwise attempting to marginalize what you believe are “garbage and lies”? What makes his arguments invalid? Which of his statements are false and lies? How do you know? And why are you definitely right and why is he definitely wrong?
There’s this really interesting humans do. We become convinced of some viewpoint, whether through reason or, more likely, uncritical acceptance of some framework. It’s the right viewpoint. We assume others must also share our viewpoint. The truth is obvious to us. So disagreement is often treated as lies. The one who disagrees knows the truth, but chooses to say otherwise. They’re nefarious, despicable, and disrespectful for their duplicity in the face of an obvious truth.
But here’s the thing: people genuinely hold beliefs different than you. What you see as “faulty, intentionally dishonest foundations” can only be true if you are of the mind of Pizzamane and can definitively say he believes in something else entirely. You must have the mind of Pizzamane. Unless you’re really a psychic, you cannot do that. He may actually believe the foundations of his beliefs and you’ve been wrong this whole time. You can’t know that’s true either.
So what to do?
As hard as it might be, you have no choice but to except Pizzamane and other liberals and leftists at face value. You can consider our beliefs as garbage all you want. But leftists have every right to participate in this community, just as you do. And, I assure you, we often consider your beliefs garbage. When we disagree, then we should argue about the arguments, the statements and conclusions.
In short, he, or anyone else for that matter, will not be banned by me as long as they bring arguments. (…and don’t tell people to fuck off…😠)
If all mankind minus one were of one opinion, and only one person wereof the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.—John Stuart Mill
Do you think the solution to mis-/dis-information is censorship or otherwise attempting to marginalize what you believe are “garbage and lies”?
Yes. When people continuously are shown to be bad actors uninterested in the actual facts, yes, it’s good for the health of a community built around discussion to remove such a person since all letting them stay does is place an extra burden on everyone else to continuously correct the lies such that they don’t propagate to unknowing people.
When people continuously are shown to be bad actors uninterested in the actual facts, yes, it’s good for the health of a community built around discussion to remove such a person
Funny how this standard applies to me, but not the conservatives around here who are throwing insults around (one of whom is a mod).
I believe there is a term for it, a double standard.
I’d like for this community to have high quality discussions. But it never will so long as the rules aren’t enforced on conservatives and leftists alike.
Some states have a small amount. The rest basically have none. And even the states that do have gun control pail in comparison to German gun control as Peepin pointed out.
And you’re ignoring the fact that any given gun law is only as strong as the weakest gun law nationwide. Anybody can go traveling to another state where the gun laws are lax and get a gun.
The gun control in this country is laughably weak as a result. Couple that with having the most guns per capita of any country out there, it’s a recipe for having a shooting basically every god damned day.
As I broke down, the requirements to own a gun in Germany and in America are very similar at the federal level. The weapons used in the shooting in Kansas CIty could have been purchased in Germany.
And that’s before you get into all the other restrictions that germany has on a national level. To pick out a few:
Gun license required for pretty much everything that isn’t a musket
A license requires you to be over 18, be trustworthy, capable of owning a gun, have expert knowledge, and have a necessity for a gun
Ban on convicted felons, those with addictions or metal disorders from owning guns
Any weapon defined as a weapon of war is banned
Gun control in the U.S. is nowhere near the level of gun control in Germany. A requirement for a license to own a gun in the U.S. would get shut down by the 2nd amendment so fucking hard not even the NSA would know the attempt was made.
Did you read the article I posted? Gun licensing is the equivalent of our process to purchase a firearm. And your article is wrong. Fully automatic systems are regulated in the United States at the federal level. Why you shouldn’t rely on Wikipedia for a topic you don’t understand. You see differences that really are not there.
Necessity is easy to get past, you hunt, sport shoot, etc
Still, how would any of these changed the Kansas City shooting? You keep trying to dodge the question of the article.
Then clarify as I don’t see how how any of this would have stopped the shooting.
Your chart was wrong and I called it out. Are you intentionally posting false information since you knew it was wrong ?
You realize gun control really started during Nazi germany to keep the Jews from defend themselves. After the war it was the allies who stripped away most the gun rights to keep the population from attacking the allies.
Pizzaman’s point is that American gun control is not equivalent to German gun control, though. His argument is in the details.
From the article he linked:
German gun laws restricts the acquisition, possession, and carrying of firearms to those with a creditable need for a weapon.
They also ban fully automatic guns and severely restrict the acquisition of other types of weapons.
Compulsory liability insurance is required for anyone who is licensed to carry firearms.
In other words, yeah, we have gun control laws, but as long as the Supreme Court continues to (foolishly) recognize an individual right to firearms with no relation to a militia, an interpretation that’s only a little over a decade old, then yeah, no version of American gun control laws are ever going to be effective.
They also ban fully automatic guns and severely restrict the acquisition of other types of weapons.
Fully automatic weapons are heavily restricted here. Can you think of one ever being used in a crime? I can’t.
Compulsory liability insurance is required for anyone who is licensed to carry firearms.
Do you think that would change anything? Do you think the criminals would say, Oh Crap! I can’t afford the liability insurance. Do you think that would have stopped the Kansas City shooting?
German gun laws restricts the acquisition, possession, and carrying of firearms to those with a creditable need for a weapon.
That wouldn’t have stopped the Kansas City shooting either. They didn’t legally own the firearms.
There have been a few instances, but as far as I know, they were not legal weapons. The LA Bank shooting is an example. That is the only one I can think of.
Stolen from police officers? Because German gun laws restrict acquisition, possession, and carrying of firearms to those with a creditable need for a weapon, then it’s likely such laws would not have stopped the Kansas City shooting. Police officers have a need for a weapon.
Stolen from John Smith, some random dude with no need to have a gun? Then, because German gun laws restrict acquisition, possession, and carrying of firearms to those with a creditable need for a weapon, then it’s likely such laws would have stopped the Kansas City shooting. The gun(s) wouldn’t have been available to steal in the first place.
I do not see a credible need other than for a concealed weapon. Otherwise, it appears fairly open to buying a firearm. The requirements are similar to ours, Age, criminal record, mental health, no drug abuse, background check with only the addition of proof of competency.
Yeah, I don’t see a credible need requirement either, according to that website. So, we’ll go with proof of expertise instead.
Even so, your site mentions that publicly carrying firearms is generally prohibited and concealed carry is generally reserved for specific professions.
So, if the Kansas City shooter acquired the gun by stealing them, then it’s going to matter where they were stolen from.
If they were stolen from John Smith in public, then again, German gun control laws are far more likely to have stopped the Kansas City shooting because the legally acquired gun wouldn’t have been in the public in the first place.
If they were stolen from John Smith at home, then, the website you linked has safe storage requirements that suggest it would take a lot for the shooter to find and combine everything before going on the rampage. Again, German gun control laws would have likely stopped the shooting.
And while this is a fun exercise in the logical application of law, it’s all for nothing because German gun laws are largely unconstitutional. For Americans, guns are an individual right, not a privilege. In law, rights require duties from others. If someone has a right to something, then others have the duty of respecting that right. A right to guns is the duty to endure a higher probability of being murdered in a firearm related incident than other developed nations.
The whole “what could have stopped X” question is a loaded one. But regardless, the answer is gun control, and U.S. law should learn from modern German law:
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/germany-gun-control-laws-a4366996.html
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/london-evening-standard/
It’s crazy how even this right wing sources seems to understand that gun control is necessary and a requirement for low gun death rates, given that they admit right at the begging of the article that they have amongst the lowest death rates out there.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
Total:
Germany: 1.04/capita
United States: 12.21/capita
Homicide only:
Germany: 0.06/capita
United States: 4.46/capita
If more guns & lax gun laws made us safe, we would should expect to see the opposite. Yet we don’t, because anybody with half a brain understands that a tool whose purpose is to kill as easily as possible will make killing easier when it is around untrained people/people with insufficient reason to own it/people who store them poorly.
That’s a 75x smaller gun homicide rate. We aren’t going to get that small of a rate without gun control.
Inb4 somebody calls me a troll despite putting effort into this: fuck off
Mate, here’s a great example of you intentionally pissing everyone off. Look at how much effort you put into the comment, you got sources and everything. But you’re still managed to piss everyone off, while maintaining a thin facade of civility. We can see past it at this point, you aren’t here to discuss or anything, just to troll.
A try-hard troll is still a troll.
I’m still going to let peepin make the final decision, but I fully recommend a ban.
Except for that last line, I can’t in good conscience ban Pizzaman. As long as he brings the arguments, it’s not something I’ll do. After all, dissent is allowed in the comments.
And Winter and I just had a discussion about gun laws that stemmed from Pizzaman’s post. So, there’s no reason why people can’t agree or disagree on the substance and entirely ignore a thin façade of civility if that’s what you really think it is.
The problem is that his arguments are made from faulty, intentionally dishonest foundations. It doesn’t matter how many random propaganda sites he links, the whole thing is still a heap of garbage and lies.
So what?
Do you think the solution to mis-/dis-information is censorship or otherwise attempting to marginalize what you believe are “garbage and lies”? What makes his arguments invalid? Which of his statements are false and lies? How do you know? And why are you definitely right and why is he definitely wrong?
There’s this really interesting humans do. We become convinced of some viewpoint, whether through reason or, more likely, uncritical acceptance of some framework. It’s the right viewpoint. We assume others must also share our viewpoint. The truth is obvious to us. So disagreement is often treated as lies. The one who disagrees knows the truth, but chooses to say otherwise. They’re nefarious, despicable, and disrespectful for their duplicity in the face of an obvious truth.
But here’s the thing: people genuinely hold beliefs different than you. What you see as “faulty, intentionally dishonest foundations” can only be true if you are of the mind of Pizzamane and can definitively say he believes in something else entirely. You must have the mind of Pizzamane. Unless you’re really a psychic, you cannot do that. He may actually believe the foundations of his beliefs and you’ve been wrong this whole time. You can’t know that’s true either.
So what to do?
As hard as it might be, you have no choice but to except Pizzamane and other liberals and leftists at face value. You can consider our beliefs as garbage all you want. But leftists have every right to participate in this community, just as you do. And, I assure you, we often consider your beliefs garbage. When we disagree, then we should argue about the arguments, the statements and conclusions.
In short, he, or anyone else for that matter, will not be banned by me as long as they bring arguments. (…and don’t tell people to fuck off…😠)
Yes. When people continuously are shown to be bad actors uninterested in the actual facts, yes, it’s good for the health of a community built around discussion to remove such a person since all letting them stay does is place an extra burden on everyone else to continuously correct the lies such that they don’t propagate to unknowing people.
Funny how this standard applies to me, but not the conservatives around here who are throwing insults around (one of whom is a mod).
I believe there is a term for it, a double standard.
I’d like for this community to have high quality discussions. But it never will so long as the rules aren’t enforced on conservatives and leftists alike.
Thats fair, and thats exactly why I let you make the decision.
… by simply existing evidently.
If bringing up straight facts is enough to piss people off, then you guys are the problem, not me or the facts.
Then why the fuck would I be putting in the tiniest bit of effort? Trolls don’t put effort in.
You made a false assumption, and went all in on sources that depend on that assumption.
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What are you even talking about?
Are you going to address what I said?
You know what, no, I’m not. I’m going to turn off my computer, and go drink a couple more beers and do literally anything but get on lemmy tonight.
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We have gun control. That is why the question the article asks is what law could have changed stopped it.
We are not without gun laws here. We have a lot of laws in this
Some states have a small amount. The rest basically have none. And even the states that do have gun control pail in comparison to German gun control as Peepin pointed out.
And you’re ignoring the fact that any given gun law is only as strong as the weakest gun law nationwide. Anybody can go traveling to another state where the gun laws are lax and get a gun.
The gun control in this country is laughably weak as a result. Couple that with having the most guns per capita of any country out there, it’s a recipe for having a shooting basically every god damned day.
The rest basically have non
As I broke down, the requirements to own a gun in Germany and in America are very similar at the federal level. The weapons used in the shooting in Kansas CIty could have been purchased in Germany.
That is objectively false.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overview_of_gun_laws_by_nation
And that’s before you get into all the other restrictions that germany has on a national level. To pick out a few:
Gun license required for pretty much everything that isn’t a musket
A license requires you to be over 18, be trustworthy, capable of owning a gun, have expert knowledge, and have a necessity for a gun
Ban on convicted felons, those with addictions or metal disorders from owning guns
Any weapon defined as a weapon of war is banned
Gun control in the U.S. is nowhere near the level of gun control in Germany. A requirement for a license to own a gun in the U.S. would get shut down by the 2nd amendment so fucking hard not even the NSA would know the attempt was made.
Did you read the article I posted? Gun licensing is the equivalent of our process to purchase a firearm. And your article is wrong. Fully automatic systems are regulated in the United States at the federal level. Why you shouldn’t rely on Wikipedia for a topic you don’t understand. You see differences that really are not there. Necessity is easy to get past, you hunt, sport shoot, etc
Still, how would any of these changed the Kansas City shooting? You keep trying to dodge the question of the article.
I understand how federalism works, evidently that skill escapes you.
You can legally own a fully automatic gun in the U.S., unlike Germany. Even your cherypicked point is wrong.
I’ve already answered this, and the answer went sailing over your head.
Then clarify as I don’t see how how any of this would have stopped the shooting.
Your chart was wrong and I called it out. Are you intentionally posting false information since you knew it was wrong ?
You realize gun control really started during Nazi germany to keep the Jews from defend themselves. After the war it was the allies who stripped away most the gun rights to keep the population from attacking the allies.
Nah, you’re not worth the effort. You’d just find a new way to side step the meaning of what I am saying.
I just explained why it isn’t.
And this country was founded on the blood of the natives, and built by slaves. So what?
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The gun wasn’t legal.
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Pizzaman’s point is that American gun control is not equivalent to German gun control, though. His argument is in the details.
From the article he linked:
In other words, yeah, we have gun control laws, but as long as the Supreme Court continues to (foolishly) recognize an individual right to firearms with no relation to a militia, an interpretation that’s only a little over a decade old, then yeah, no version of American gun control laws are ever going to be effective.
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Fully automatic weapons are heavily restricted here. Can you think of one ever being used in a crime? I can’t.
Do you think that would change anything? Do you think the criminals would say, Oh Crap! I can’t afford the liability insurance. Do you think that would have stopped the Kansas City shooting?
That wouldn’t have stopped the Kansas City shooting either. They didn’t legally own the firearms.
If anything, you’ve pointed out that gun control works.
There have been a few instances, but as far as I know, they were not legal weapons. The LA Bank shooting is an example. That is the only one I can think of.
You almost understood.
It matters how they acquired the firearm. Do we know how that came to be?
I’ve only seen articles identify them as stolen
Stolen from who though?
Stolen from police officers? Because German gun laws restrict acquisition, possession, and carrying of firearms to those with a creditable need for a weapon, then it’s likely such laws would not have stopped the Kansas City shooting. Police officers have a need for a weapon.
Stolen from John Smith, some random dude with no need to have a gun? Then, because German gun laws restrict acquisition, possession, and carrying of firearms to those with a creditable need for a weapon, then it’s likely such laws would have stopped the Kansas City shooting. The gun(s) wouldn’t have been available to steal in the first place.
https://germanyexpat.de/gun-laws-in-germany/
I do not see a credible need other than for a concealed weapon. Otherwise, it appears fairly open to buying a firearm. The requirements are similar to ours, Age, criminal record, mental health, no drug abuse, background check with only the addition of proof of competency.
Yeah, I don’t see a credible need requirement either, according to that website. So, we’ll go with proof of expertise instead.
Even so, your site mentions that publicly carrying firearms is generally prohibited and concealed carry is generally reserved for specific professions.
So, if the Kansas City shooter acquired the gun by stealing them, then it’s going to matter where they were stolen from.
If they were stolen from John Smith in public, then again, German gun control laws are far more likely to have stopped the Kansas City shooting because the legally acquired gun wouldn’t have been in the public in the first place.
If they were stolen from John Smith at home, then, the website you linked has safe storage requirements that suggest it would take a lot for the shooter to find and combine everything before going on the rampage. Again, German gun control laws would have likely stopped the shooting.
And while this is a fun exercise in the logical application of law, it’s all for nothing because German gun laws are largely unconstitutional. For Americans, guns are an individual right, not a privilege. In law, rights require duties from others. If someone has a right to something, then others have the duty of respecting that right. A right to guns is the duty to endure a higher probability of being murdered in a firearm related incident than other developed nations.
Removed by mod