So there’s been a lot of discussion recently about Riven as a champion, particularly with the fast Q Mechanics. The thread I’m referring to is this thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/17t03iy/an_in_depth_look_into_riven_and_why_her/

I want to say this is not a personal attack on the OP of that post. I think they actually raise a good point, and Riven needs changing, there have been talks about it on r/Rivenmains. I think what the OP of the post said is a needed criticism and look at Riven’s identity as a champion. I don’t want attacks on the OP, as they are already getting toxic attacks by the Riven Main community, I’m sorry that the Riven Main community is this toxic that we can’t have a discussion on this.

I will also say this, I’m not a native English speaker, English is my third language, and I’m also not a high elo player, I’m hardstuck Plat 4, so my description and knowledge of these mechanics may be lacking. For a better explanation, I think Adrian Riven has an older video on this subject that describes it better than I do.

There are two “types” of fast Q that Riven can do, one is what’s described in the post to be very hard to do, and the other is the fast Q that actually matters for balancing the playing purposes.

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"Perfect fast Q " is explored in this thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/Rivenmains/comments/klwyhu/fast_q_dps_testing_thread/

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It’s basically the highest DPS you can achieve on Riven with just AA and 3Qs, and it seems to be an animation cancel that takes around = 0.65 seconds. (Again these numbers can be wrong as this number is even influenced by the VSU that Riot gave Riven and I’m not the best or most knowledgeable of Riven player) The Max DPS found as the result at the time of that post is 256, it has likely changed due to base stat changes.

Normal Fast Q is what more of us Riven mains actually use. This is because “Perfect Fast Q” is only realistically possible on a dummy, next to a wall, in practice tool, with good ping, people even say the skin of Riven matters as the ones who did it. The normal Fast Q is simply AA - Q- click ground - AA, combining two previous animation cancels, where AA is canceled by Q and Q is canceled by movement commands.

Example of Normal Fast Q:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Rivenmains/comments/zil6b4/fast_q_dps_testing_thread_expanded_enhanced/ (Average DPS found to be 223, against possibly outdated due to base stat changes and rune choice changes)

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This isn’t exactly two types but it’s two conditions, so I didn’t like to call it two types, but it is two types when we talk about balancing because most Riven players can’t do “Perfect Fast Q”, even Adrian Riven or General Sniper can’t consistently do “Perfect Fast Q”. You can see the differences on their streams and videos. Fast Q as a mechanic is actually more like a spectrum of timing.

Most Riven players in Sliver, as seen in r/Rivenmains, can do “Normal Fast Q”, which would be an animation cancel that would take about 0.8-1 second or something around that time (again, I’m not an expert on this topic). This matters because the OP of the original post mistaken “Perfect Fast Q” as the standard when it’s not the standard for even the best of riven mains. The average Riven main CAN fast Q, just not perfectly, and even more, it shouldn’t be the basis of what Fast Q should be if Riot balanced around it.

Main Point: If Riot were to balance Riven around fast Q, they should do so based on the “Normal Fast Q” as that’s what even Challenger Riven players are really hitting, I think maybe they hit some ten 0.75 seconds Fast Q at maximum or one that’s close to 0.65 for 1v1 out of couple hundreds per game.

You can still argue that there is still a large skill gap issue between the best of Riven players, but that claim that fast Q can only be done by a handful of players is wrong, as you don’t need to do “Perfect Fast Q” is play Riven, and “Normal Fast Q” is the standard mechanics most sliver-even challenger Riven players can do. To say Fast Q is a hard mechanic that only a handful of players can do is hyperbole as a vast majority if not all Riven players can consistently fast Q, just not to a perfect extent as that would require ideal conditions or legit scripting plays.

It’s also not required to play Riven, I don’t want Fast Q to be seen as a hidden secret op mechanic, as it’s really not. I don’t think I have ever hit a “Perfect Fast Q” in my life, but I have consistently fast Q in my life on 60-70 ping NA. You don’t have to be a challenger to play basic Riven, I don’t believe most people avoid Riven because they can’t play her, they are just intimidated, which I understand with how Riven’s reputation is in the general league community as well as the reputation of the Riven Main community being toxic, which sadly is true.

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To give a counterexample (I don’t know the correct term in English): S canceling should be more what OP is discussing, a mechanic that is only doable on good ping and one that a vast majority of Riven mains can’t do. (At least from our knowledge, this is a newly discovered mechanic in the past few months I believe.)

Example of s canceling: https://www.reddit.com/r/Rivenmains/comments/17rfm23/probably_a_good_new_combo_with_s_key/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Rivenmains/comments/16qw38i/new_riven_mechanics_s_cancel/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Rivenmains/comments/1767cfr/advanced_s_cancelling_a_guide/

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It’s not very difficult to do Fast Q, it just takes practice time. Riven doesn’t have a super high skill floor like GP or Jayce, she kind of does have a high skill ceiling. All you need to play Riven is Fast Q and R1 and R2 cancel. You don’t need to do “Perfect Fast Q” to learn Riven, even S canceling as far as we have explored it on r/Rivenmains doesn’t seem to be that strong of a mechanic, it’s just it MIGHT be useful. I personally think, and I think Alois (A MUCH BETTER Riven main than me) agrees with me here, Riven takes a basic amount of mechanical skill and then a lot of Macro and limit testing. A lot of matchups on Riven are learning how to counter the enemy champion and morph around them. All mechanics that are needed to learn Riven can be learned in under an hour or even 30 minutes, though I will say I’m saying this as a Riven main so I’m a bit biased.

I will also say that I think that an in-depth look into Riven should be done with a look into her mechanics as used by the average Riven players and maybe a subsection for challenger Riven mains. You shouldn’t base a champion’s balance on the extent it can be played in theory, but on what an average player can play or higher-ranked player if the champion is designed to be hard (Azir, Riven, Kalista, Draven, GP, etc). That last point may cause controversy, but if that’s the case we can have a discussion, just please don’t be toxic and don’t use hyperbole intentional or not. Thank you for reading this post by your average Riven main.

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  • papu16BEnglish
    1·
    1 year ago

    I just gonna repeat some takes that I saw here and there in that post.

    1. There is clarity issue with animation cancels, unlike good barrels from GP or good shadow usage from Zed - you can’t see wtf happened when riven pressed flash and only thing that you saw after that is gray screen. You have no info about that cancels in her kit at all.
    2. There is constant boost in dps thanks to that cancels, so because of champ SHOULD be balanced around not constant mechanic.
    3. Because Riven can unload all her burst in a few seconds thanks to cancels - Her best builds are glass cannon ones(at FULL BUILD you have only 400 bonus hp and 1 item with resistance). So new players are forced to face this problem - you are or stomping hard on this champ or bloody useless, so they just picking another champ who has some skill ceiling, but actually good/manageable skill floor(Aatrox, Camille, Fiora, Renek and they are not even new champs).

    That cancels need to go, or at least have some typo about them in her kit. In ideal world remove fast Q and as compensation make Q faster by default or under some condition for everyone and add some max hp dmg or small armorpen, so fullbruiser Riven could be playable.

    • AGamingBoiOPBEnglish
      1·
      1 year ago
      1. I don’t experience this issue as I’ve said a reply ro another post. That’s from a Riven main perspective so I understand if that’s not the case for people who don’t play Riven, but when I play vs Riven I can actually see mistake they make in their cancels that are very exploitable.

      Again I understand if that’s not the case for most of the playerbase but I will also argue it’s fine for a high skill champion to require more skill to be played against as well as to play as. It adds more complexity to the game.

      1. Fast Q is not a constant boost in DPS? I may have misunderstood that statement but Fast Q requires close up use of your Q which makes Riven balanced on her CD, it’s inherently burst damage. Riven is very weak without CDR so if that’s what you’re talking about then I would understand more but I don’t understand this statement.

      2. That issue isn’t exclusive to the lethality build, even the Gore build is still extremely feast or famine (I believe that’s what you’re describing, I can be wrong, English isn’t my first language). I would agree with the statement otherwise but I think this is a base stat fix. When Riven wasn’t bad in the meta, this was never an issue. It’s only bring up now as it’s as reaction, but when Riven a good, when you’re rewarded for learning her, I don’t think this was an issue being brought up.

      Even if this was the case, I don’t think it’s fair to judge the champion in a bad meta, there was a time when the Gore build was optimal, and if Riven was given better matchups and stats it naturally will become optinal. The lethality build is trying to snowball harder of the opponents mistake. If lane state was neutral the build is weakened, but that’s not a build specific issue, that’s a Riven issue that the build was created to try to optimize.

      If Riven is a good champion on even gold, I don’t believe Gore will be suboptimal. Fixing the animation cancel doesn’t have to do with anything with this fundamental issue of Riven’s lack of amour pen. If it does, it wouldn’t make sense to not just give her an amour pen change first and go from there. I’ve always advocated for a change where her AD scaling is lowered for amour pen on her passive which I think will lower her feast or famine play style.

      If that’s what you believe, I will also say that most Riven players rn wouldn’t agree with Fast Q changes including me. It’s a core part of the champion and removing it feels weird as the animation cancel you mentioned before (triple casting with a lack of clarity) has nothing to do with Fast Q. Fast Q isn’t incomprehensible and a world with just making Q faster and removing Fast Q is just less skill expression for no reason. I don’t understand how why fast Q is perceived as difficult, but if it’s a lack of understanding I do agree with putting it on Riven’s tool tip since it’s core to Riven’s gameplay.