I want to donate to a linux phone. I believe in linux and I want a linux phone. Maybe we can use one in very few years as a normal daily driver. It’s getting closer and closer every month.
I want to donate that we get there sooner. But which project? I’m following postmarket but I’m not sure if they are the most promising. What’s your stance on this? To which project would you give your money to accellerate it?
Edit: I don’t want to buy a phone. I want to support the phone os devs. Sorry for the bad wording.
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In my opinion postmarketOS is the most promising mobile Linux OS now. But the phones? Only OnePlus 6 is good. PinePhone is a project to look at as well but the hardware is not as good from the regular user’s perspective
I think the Fairphone 4 is also worth checking out. It works great with Ubuntu Touch, SailfishOS seems to be doing well on the device, and there’s developments towards PostmarketOS. :)
Fairphone looks really cool, but I feel like too big for my weak little hands
I’d probably just refurb an old old Android phone. Would love to buy hardware that is more ethically sourced though
In the end, nothing is better than second hand!
Ubuntu Touch is almost dead, Sailfish is proprietary and many many phones have that kind of postmarketOS support. I’m talking about things that are already usable
Why do you think Ubuntu Touch is almost dead? The development community is pretty active. They recently finished the huge task of upgrading to 20.04, and are hard at work getting up to speed with 24.04, at which point they will have paid back a lot of technical debt.
Ubuntu Touch on a supported device is probably the most usable experience you can have with Linux phones as a daily driver at the moment, especially as Waydroid runs quite well on many devices to fill the gaps.
Oh I thought they weren’t planning to update it further than 20.04
The main problem is political not technical. The market had been allowed to become a duopoly and too many critical things now need an app on an Android or Apple phone. The worse I know is banks needing an app for authentication for their online banking. No separate security device anymore, those are ewaste apparently.
Public EV chargers where you can only control them from an app.
Riding book at theme parks. The cases are growing. Even the app is just wrapper of hidden web page!
Frankly I think regulation is required to get competition in the market. Not the only tech one either. Why is it so hard for law makers to see monopoly in tech?
Can’t Linux phones run android apps pretty seamlessly via waydroid anyway though?
Increasingly lots of stuff won’t work without all of the Google services. Banking apps won’t run on root devices or anything odd they detect.
Even without that, I can say how seamless it is.
Banking apps won’t run on root devices or anything odd they detect.
Banking apps will run in Android emulation layers on GNU/Linux.
That’s good, though I still think it’s a problem they exist. I mean a lot of apps are a webpage wrapped in an app anyway, so why not just a webpage and skip the platform dependence.
AOSP. Sad but true.
When first pinephone came out I really believed it’s heading somewhere. It thought that it will be kind of like raspberry Pi (fun, cheap platform to play with) and that we’ll quickly see copycats and it will slowly grow the way Linux on desktop did. AFAIK nothing like this happened. You still can’t get a phone with decent Linux support which for me shows that we’re stuck with android. I think most people that would help Linux phone happen are simply satisfied with LineageOS so there’s no incentive to put as much effort into it as it requires.
AOSP is dying as Google is killing off all the apps in favor of proprietary Google ones.
Lineage os is slowly becoming its own thing as they are maintaining basically all of the system apps at this point.
I like the security measures that Google takes for Android.
I don’t like how Google fucks everyone over in everything else
Yeah, I love having to use a custom ROM to get security updates and subsequently root my phone to be able to pass safetynet so I can use banking apps on my phone. Else I have to do as designed: Buy a new phone every 2-3 years :))))))
Not Google’s fault alone, but the way Android and ARM both have proprietary components combine into a delightful piece of hot crap that stifles users freedom and innovation.
For some reason everyone is assuming the worst out of my comment.
For reference, I was talking about the change in the system certificate store in Android 14, to which even root cannot directly write to now. This seems like a massive bug to people but this is actually an unintended byproduct instead of intentionally fucking everyone over.
I don’t think people realise the amount of work Google puts into Android. I hate their policies as much as the next person, but I can never fail to respect their efforts towards Android. You think A/B would be reality if we left it to Samsung? It would become another locked garden like Apple.
Unless the day comes that we absolutely cannot run custom ROMs (and this is a problem specifically in America because of carriers, not Google or any other OEM), I will never fail to acknowledge the great benefits that Google has brought to Android.
Your problems stem from capitalism and not from Google’s code
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AFAIK the only proprietary parts of AOSP are Google’s services and GMS. And any smaller related bits.
Or are you saying that Lineage OS is just guessing in the wild with every release?
AOSP is OSS though?
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With LineageOS, you pretty much are running AOSP on your phone.
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Try to compile just the Android SDK yourself. No one even knows if this is possible (if all the source code needed is there).
“Security measures”
I 100% agree.
Love it or hate it, Android is extremly fast, polished, stable and easy to use, not to mention it has gigantic library apps that are built to work perfectly with a touchscreen.
I honestly don’t really get what there is to gain by using “Desktop Linux”. I mean sure some proper Programs offer way more features than Apps but using them on a 6.5" Touchscreen sounds like pain.
I honestly don’t really get what there is to gain by using “Desktop Linux”.
More freedom I guess. I remember my n900 and how fun it was to just ssh into it and dig in my home directory, install apps with packet manger, edit config files with vi and so on. It really felt like having small Linux machine in my pocket. With Android everything is definitely more locked up but then again, I’m not sure what would I do if it was more open. Writing apps for Android is easier than for desktop (or just as easy), there are no more hardware keyboard phones so using terminal on them is terrible anyway and phones just work anyway so there’s no need to mess with the configuration. Personally I mostly gave up on the ‘Linux phone’ idea and if I need any new features I will simply write cross platform app that runs on Android (for example with tauri).
Sounds a lot like the Android 4.X and 2.X days. Its unfortunate that Google over time has locked down Android more and more. I mean having the option to do wild stuff is better than not having it.
The only real usecase I could see is with a proper Desktop Mode like DEX on High end Samsung phones or Motorola’s ready for. Where you can plug your phone into a Monitor and attach a physical keyboard and mouse. In that case, yeah it would be neat to break out of the Android jail.
I honestly don’t really get what there is to gain by using “Desktop Linux”.
I don’t think anyone actually want’s desktop linux, just a free & completely open source phone OS, the only hope for which is a linux derivative.
It doesn’t need to be competitive with a flagship phone experience. I think device capabilities have plateaued somewhat… I’ve been playing around with a 4 year old phone the last few weeks and it’s supremely adequate for everything I need to do.
There are a myriad of potential uses for older devices.
Actually regarding the app department (caveat is that I have an iPhone looking to switch to android), there has been a huge wave of developers making apps for mobile Linux or making their apps compatible. So much so that someone like me (I download everything that’s shiny) has more than had his app needs met and exceeded by what has been released.
Actually my main reason for wanting mobile Linux to succeed is because these apps look and work so good. Especially the gnome ones, the app ecosystem alone makes mobile Linux desirable.
Honestly, even more so when you consider how mobile linux could potentially get Apple levels of cross-device integration (without the baggage), and the ability to have the same UI on your phone and computer. I want to use gnome and libadwaita apps everywhere lol.
@aluminium @ExLisper i mean technically, apple is unix based and android is too, the unix-based OSes have clearly overtaken all the other proprietary systems that popped up in the last 30 years, so there’s that
The benefits are there, some of ideas out of my head:
Better networking for administrator, access to /etc/hosts file, not being tied to a single VPN slot.
Using old mobile phone as a simple server, having access to firewall tools and normal remote control.
Installing simplier graphical interface for eldery people.
Lifetime updates for many system components that are not device specific.
Simple backups and cloning with standard tools like rsync or borgbackup instead of Google Drive. Also backing up whole system.
Everyone can add a feature, you can make a difference, no need to mess with Google’s Android developing pipeline.
Making native apps for mobile and desktop at the same time, no need for bloated web-like abstraction layers.
Apps made in Python, C, Rust… No need to fit into Android SDK. And no forcing Android SDK and Android Studio!
Customizations of the interface look via CSS files (Phosh have it to some sort).
Someone give more ideas?
Yes, it’s all true but the issue is you can already do a lot of those things with a lot of cheap hardware that is is simply easier to support than old phones. And when it comes to phones being phones Android is really good and has a lot of apps. I think the problem with Linux phones getting more popular is that the overlap between desktop/server and mobile is very small. I mean I use my phone only for phone things and a lot of things I do on my phone I can do only on my phone (e.g. charging an electric car is basically impossible without a Android/iPhone). Having a phone that can do some things desktop/server can do but can’t do a lot of things a phone can do is pretty much pointless at this point.
When we’ll get a proper Linux phone with full Android apps support and convergence it will be really awesome but I just don’t think there’s enough interest to get there at this point.
The problem with Android is it is very invasive and in my opinion untrustworthy. How many of these Android OS’s from various vendors are not kept up to date, with unpatched vulnerabilities because they dump support to force upgrade their customers to the next model, when your phone should still be functionally viable. How many apps in the Android ecosystem are just info vacuums? It’s a very predatory ecosystem and i would prefer a libre solution to these scumbag predatory corporations. It blows my mind how people are so numb to the abuses of these companies, they won’t even consider alternatives. Iphones aren’t a viable alternative either unless you’re into joining abusive cults. I have both a Pinephone and a Librem 5, and they work fine if you don’t mind horrible battery life, i just wish we had more alternatives and I’ll put my money towards that endeavor.
Yes, Android has issues but what I’m saying is that so far Linux on phones really hasn’t been able to compete. No one want’s a phone with no camera, no GPS, no apps and terrible battery. Making Linux phones is just super difficult and sadly I don’t see it happening anytime soon. Android is a good platform with lots of hardware and apps. You have Fairphone offering long tern support, f-droid offering privacy oriented apps and LineageOS offering stable OS. Getting more phoes to support it is a better bet than getting Linux to properly work on modern phones.
This is a problem with the current industry, smartphones are conceptually no different than any other computer. It’s Qualcomm not publishing proper documentation and tools, propietary bootloaders, drivers being baked as Android packages, no specification how main processor can talk to a modem…
Oof, now I am sad on the account of what could have been.
An Android phone isn’t what’s referred to when people say “Linux phone”. What they’re referring to is a phone running GNU/Linux, typically running one of the GNU/Linux phone shells/desktop environments.
I know and what I’m saying is that all those project are moving very slowly while projects like GraphneOS/LineageOS already offer open, privacy oriented phones with good hardware and lot’s of apps. This is simply where more effort is going, where we’re seeing more progress and our best chance at getting “Linux phones”.
I know
Apparently not.
projects like GraphneOS/LineageOS … our best chance at getting “Linux phones”.
To repeat myself: an Android phone (for example, running GrapheneOS or LineageOS) isn’t a “Linux phone”.
Not necessarily, F-droid combined with Lineage os or other free software ROM gives you the same freedoms are the Linux desktop does.
What you’ve said here doesn’t contradict what I said. A phone running Lineage OS is explicitly not what people are referring to with the phrase “Linux phone”.
You can’t even compile any of those FOSS apps without running propietary build of Android SDK. No one managed to build current versions of Android SDK from the source code yet.
Android is like one big blob and changing anything in it require giant effort. Meanwhile making new feature for a Linux phone with common Linux tech stack is super easy and any mid-tier developer can change something in Phosh for example.
I don’t believe that is the case
Which one? Android SDK source is under Apache licence, but binaries are under EULA. There were some efforts to properly package it under free licencje, but currently no one do it.
As for Android being giant blob, maybe not the best word but it really is barely available to change. If I want to add a new feature to the UI, I need to build whole ROM again and deal with Google’s developing platforms. While on Linux you can get the code for a component from some GitHub/Codeberg and modify/reinstall just that component.
That’s just capitulation.
(also you should get their usb-c powered soldering iron… pinecil )
Unusable as a daily driver. It’s a nice gadget, just expect the worst user experience ever.
yeah well i was responding to:
Maybe we can use one in very few years as a normal daily driver. It’s getting closer and closer every month.
so… yeah, i know it’s not super useable as a daily driver (to a pussy)
but seriously it is getting a lot closer…,
My friend’s daily driver is a PinePhone. So usable as a daily driver.
Pine phone is a nice gadget but I don’t think they contribute to software development as much as Purism does. Not that I recommend buying anything from Purism because of their business practices.
What’s wrong about that to you? I’ve a laptop and a phone from them and I’m happy with them.
Have a scan through the posts in https://reddit.com/r/purism
I know better than that.
I got my phone after 5 years of waiting too, it’s a nice paperweight. I power it on twice a year, do a full update, play for an hour and put it back in the drawer.
Same. I was fine supporting the effort but it isn’t a replacement.
When I was looking a couple years ago Ubuntu Touch was by far the most developed and stable. Primarily because Canonical poured millions of dollars into its development before giving it up and dropping it, but the community has gone a long way to make it what it is today.
Probably not a popular choice on this community though.
It’s a friendly community, and Lomiri is a great DE that people have also gotten up and running on [other distros].
For the time being it runs better on Android devices than on “pure” linux phones such as the PinePhone, but I have great experiences with it. If you don’t depend on other IM services than Signal you could probably use it as a daily driver on several phones already.
The community is very small and it is kind of broken in a bunch of ways.
Its better to use Postmarket os or something else that’s more flexible
I think either PostmarketOS or Mobian would be the best existing candidates right now.
Hardware wise, the Fairphone 4 is probably the best option, especially compared to something like a Pinephone.I tried Phosh (Gnome mobile shell) on an exhibition a while ago and honestly loved it.
However, I’m absolutely not confident in those tbh, in terms of reliability. The whole thing is highly experimental right now, and I wouldn’t trust them as a daily driver.
Phosh is also available for Fedora, especially Silverblue (available as ARM iso), since you are, with me together, probably one of the most prominent Fedora Atomic fanboy :D
I see big potential in a uBlue-phone spin maybe. I tried making one myself, but I absolutely don’t have a clue what I’m doing and don’t want any responsibility for such a project.
Do you know if or how we could organise such a project?I really wish PostmarketOS worked with more recent hardware, especially some of the Pixel line.
Your welcome to port it.
Thx! Sounds like it’ll be postmarketos
It’s porbably best to connect with ublue devs on their discord
Don’t use Discord, rather use the official uBlue-forum. That way, everything is public, better organized, accessible and not in the hand of some chinese corporation.
I’m ngl I think Fairphone 5 might actually be better, I think more of the hardware is supported in postmarketOS compared to the 4.
If you want to support a Linux phone project, the PinePhone looks most promising. If you want an actual usable phone that runs open source software, offers great privacy and security, good (open source) app support and doesn’t come with ads, trackers or any other bloatware, get a Google Pixel and install GrapheneOS and F-Droid.
If you dont feel too happy about owning a Pixel phone; I would also suggest a Fairphone with CalyxOS as an alternative.
The GrapheneOS team has already absolutely dismanteled the Fairphone on Mastodon:
Fairphone is an insecure device with substantially delayed privacy and security patches. It receives the Android Security Bulletin patches consistently 1 to 2 months late and receives the recommended patches years late. It has a broken, insecure verified boot implementation. They have also misled their users about support by claiming their devices will get 6 years of support when they can only provide 2-3 years of security patches. That is not a privacy first device at all.
could always get a used pixel…don’t have to buy directly from google and recycle a phone that might have been thrown out otherwise
To which project would you give your money to accellerate it?
I would reign in your hopes of accelerating a project using money, unless you have enough money to pay someone’s salary for a significant period of time.
That said, I’d suggest postmarketOS or Mobian might be the most worthy of donations.
What kind of a response is that? “just give up”, “your contribution is worth nothing”, “your money is useless”, “anyway if you want to do something worth nothing, do it there”.
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The problem with mobile phones is that they have big differences between each others in terms of hardware, so it’s really hard to come up with a “unified solution”, thus making development really slow.
Right now, the two distributions which came further in development are PostmarketOS and UbuntuTouch, but they are still far from being a reliable daily driver.If the reason you’d like to chip in is not just Linux per se, but FOSS in general, there are plenty of fully free and open source Android roms that are a great deal in terms of usability, privacy and support, notably LineageOS, GrapheneOS, /e/OS and the one I chose for myself which is CalyxOS
Edit: when I talk about a phone being a “reliable daily driver”, in my mind I think “a phone you can conduct a business with”, so call and chat with clients, take pictures, exchange e-mails, have a working GPS and Bluetooth. And all of these features must be flawless and always available and sadly Linux phones aren’t there yet.
+1 for Graphene
Postmarketos with phosh works “fine” with the pinephone.
Been enjoying my L5 for nearly a year. There are for sure problems but really it works as a phone and as a small Linux PC. I really want Crimson to come though, PostmarketOS and Mobian look very attactive.
Edit: I don’t want to buy a phone. … Sorry for the bad wording.
I’d suggest editing the post’s title as well.
I found Ubuntu Touch/Droidian the most promising when I last tried to get a good Linux mobile setup. Everything was working and i could run any linux app i wanted. The only problem was mobile data configuration with ISP here in the UK. I would donate to whoever is making the best progress and having the most impact. There is so much variety of hardware with phones that a single (or very small number) of compatibility layers needs to emerge.
I would donate to whoever is making the best progress and having the most impact.
OP is asking who that is.
I love my Pinephone, not enough to use it as my main phone thou.
It’s running Mobian, mostly because everything else I have is running Debian in some form, but it looks like the largest project is PostmarketOS.
I would go with Lineage os on your current device. You can install F-droid so you won’t need to worry about Google and there proprietary ecosystem of data collection
